Mike Lonergan
@mikelonergan7.bsky.social
Slowly doing the UHI Viking MLitt, finding switching from science hard (what used to be ignored as anecdotal is now a primary source?!?). Mostly worked on statistical analyses in ecology (marine mammals) and health. Need a dissertation topic and a new job.
Was one at Skaill?
February 2, 2026 at 4:22 PM
Was one at Skaill?
It increases my doubts about the importance of: barrels of beer in unheated stave churches, warm beer being used as a healthier baptismal alternative to cold water, and Norwegian weather. Your evidence suggests, to me, that this is a detail of a wider European ecclesiastical tidying. Thanks again.
January 9, 2026 at 10:43 AM
It increases my doubts about the importance of: barrels of beer in unheated stave churches, warm beer being used as a healthier baptismal alternative to cold water, and Norwegian weather. Your evidence suggests, to me, that this is a detail of a wider European ecclesiastical tidying. Thanks again.
Hi James,
While you're here, can you (or anyone) give a second opinion on nonnunquam?
Did it usually mean: "rarely", "often", something else, something vaguer,...
If it had multiple meanings, which were how common?
A reference, describing the general pattern of usage, would be amazing.
Thanks.
While you're here, can you (or anyone) give a second opinion on nonnunquam?
Did it usually mean: "rarely", "often", something else, something vaguer,...
If it had multiple meanings, which were how common?
A reference, describing the general pattern of usage, would be amazing.
Thanks.
January 7, 2026 at 9:08 PM
Hi James,
While you're here, can you (or anyone) give a second opinion on nonnunquam?
Did it usually mean: "rarely", "often", something else, something vaguer,...
If it had multiple meanings, which were how common?
A reference, describing the general pattern of usage, would be amazing.
Thanks.
While you're here, can you (or anyone) give a second opinion on nonnunquam?
Did it usually mean: "rarely", "often", something else, something vaguer,...
If it had multiple meanings, which were how common?
A reference, describing the general pattern of usage, would be amazing.
Thanks.
I am sorry I have annoyed you. There is some truth in your criticism. Having seen how easy it is to fall into, I hope to have more empathy for other evidence-stretchers in future
Beistad's 2017 chapter (thanks for that) seems to explain why popes might care about, and hear of, Norway's laws; (1/2)
Beistad's 2017 chapter (thanks for that) seems to explain why popes might care about, and hear of, Norway's laws; (1/2)
January 7, 2026 at 9:08 PM
I am sorry I have annoyed you. There is some truth in your criticism. Having seen how easy it is to fall into, I hope to have more empathy for other evidence-stretchers in future
Beistad's 2017 chapter (thanks for that) seems to explain why popes might care about, and hear of, Norway's laws; (1/2)
Beistad's 2017 chapter (thanks for that) seems to explain why popes might care about, and hear of, Norway's laws; (1/2)
Diplomatarium Norvegicum 308 is a Pope allowing 1 close marriage; nonnunquam emphasizes his generosity
Denzinger 412, on Norwegian baptism, starts "you have asked", and echoes the saliva law
Reading keeps moving me further from your view. We'd better end this before you explode. Thanks again (2/2)
Denzinger 412, on Norwegian baptism, starts "you have asked", and echoes the saliva law
Reading keeps moving me further from your view. We'd better end this before you explode. Thanks again (2/2)
January 7, 2026 at 9:07 PM
Diplomatarium Norvegicum 308 is a Pope allowing 1 close marriage; nonnunquam emphasizes his generosity
Denzinger 412, on Norwegian baptism, starts "you have asked", and echoes the saliva law
Reading keeps moving me further from your view. We'd better end this before you explode. Thanks again (2/2)
Denzinger 412, on Norwegian baptism, starts "you have asked", and echoes the saliva law
Reading keeps moving me further from your view. We'd better end this before you explode. Thanks again (2/2)
Blunt is fine. But that seems slightly harsh. I see the Pope's wording as distancing himself from the report, and possibly even suggesting he may have doubted what it claimed. But I wouldn't want to build a case on that impression. I still don't understand how you see so much more in the same words.
January 6, 2026 at 4:40 PM
Blunt is fine. But that seems slightly harsh. I see the Pope's wording as distancing himself from the report, and possibly even suggesting he may have doubted what it claimed. But I wouldn't want to build a case on that impression. I still don't understand how you see so much more in the same words.
I agree there isn't evidence of a copy of the Gulathing Law reaching the Vatican, but that isn't strong evidence it (or a summary of it) didn't. Laws affecting the church would seem to be potentially interesting to them. Only having the Pope's letter, not the report, shows that papers have been lost
January 6, 2026 at 4:38 PM
I agree there isn't evidence of a copy of the Gulathing Law reaching the Vatican, but that isn't strong evidence it (or a summary of it) didn't. Laws affecting the church would seem to be potentially interesting to them. Only having the Pope's letter, not the report, shows that papers have been lost
Sorry, I'd missed your post on Guibert of Nogent. That is a nice example, but collecting examples is slow. Something showing double negatives were usually, or generally, used in that way in medieval Latin (or the reverse) would resolve this point. I haven't found anything like that. Have you?
January 6, 2026 at 4:37 PM
Sorry, I'd missed your post on Guibert of Nogent. That is a nice example, but collecting examples is slow. Something showing double negatives were usually, or generally, used in that way in medieval Latin (or the reverse) would resolve this point. I haven't found anything like that. Have you?
I haven't been able to find the wider correspondence where "archbishops of Norway frequently turned to Rome for answers to issues of orthodoxy". Could you give a link, or suggest a way in to that literature? Thanks.
January 6, 2026 at 4:36 PM
I haven't been able to find the wider correspondence where "archbishops of Norway frequently turned to Rome for answers to issues of orthodoxy". Could you give a link, or suggest a way in to that literature? Thanks.
I'm happy to be corrected on this as well, but I don't think the catholic church baptises, or marries, the dead. Bishops can't fix such cases, but the pope can say whether a dead person counts as having been properly baptised, consecrated, or married. And that might matter.
January 6, 2026 at 4:35 PM
I'm happy to be corrected on this as well, but I don't think the catholic church baptises, or marries, the dead. Bishops can't fix such cases, but the pope can say whether a dead person counts as having been properly baptised, consecrated, or married. And that might matter.
This has been really useful to me. It has helped me understand what is considered sufficient evidence for historical claims. Understandably, the requirements are much less demanding than in science. It seems I need to recalibrate my scepticism. Thanks again. I do appreciate it.
January 6, 2026 at 12:26 PM
This has been really useful to me. It has helped me understand what is considered sufficient evidence for historical claims. Understandably, the requirements are much less demanding than in science. It seems I need to recalibrate my scepticism. Thanks again. I do appreciate it.
I got the impression, from some posts you made to others in this thread, that you see beer as having been important in Norwegian pre-Christian religion. Could that, and the natural belief most of us have in our own country 's exceptionalism, have influenced your reading of the sources?
January 6, 2026 at 12:26 PM
I got the impression, from some posts you made to others in this thread, that you see beer as having been important in Norwegian pre-Christian religion. Could that, and the natural belief most of us have in our own country 's exceptionalism, have influenced your reading of the sources?
I now do think this is part of a wider pattern, but not one based on Norwegian practices of baptism in beer. Instead it fits into the tightening of papal control over the church. And that's why Aquinas matters.
January 6, 2026 at 12:26 PM
I now do think this is part of a wider pattern, but not one based on Norwegian practices of baptism in beer. Instead it fits into the tightening of papal control over the church. And that's why Aquinas matters.
Also possible is: an unignorable Norwegian asked if their beer-baptised baby was in heaven, or their nephew (son of a marriage carried out by a beer-baptised priest) was a legitimate heir. The bishop passed the request upstairs. That would require a real beer-baptism to have occurred.
January 6, 2026 at 12:25 PM
Also possible is: an unignorable Norwegian asked if their beer-baptised baby was in heaven, or their nephew (son of a marriage carried out by a beer-baptised priest) was a legitimate heir. The bishop passed the request upstairs. That would require a real beer-baptism to have occurred.
My best guess now is: a written copy of Gulathing went to the Vatican, because it mentions the church. There may have been lots of discussions and requests for clarification. Eventually the pope wrote the "no" letter, which happens to survive. Norway probably didn't have a pattern of beer baptism.
January 6, 2026 at 12:25 PM
My best guess now is: a written copy of Gulathing went to the Vatican, because it mentions the church. There may have been lots of discussions and requests for clarification. Eventually the pope wrote the "no" letter, which happens to survive. Norway probably didn't have a pattern of beer baptism.
I think your position has shifted, unless you still feel there is evidence of beer baptism happening in churches. So the heating of churches is less relevant. Also your earlier points about beer being warmer, therefore safer, than water only really apply when large quantities are being used.
January 6, 2026 at 12:23 PM
I think your position has shifted, unless you still feel there is evidence of beer baptism happening in churches. So the heating of churches is less relevant. Also your earlier points about beer being warmer, therefore safer, than water only really apply when large quantities are being used.
On d), what was so different about Norway: were the winters colder than in Poland? Did people have beer but no water in Norwegian winters? People were unable to travel elsewhere. Many children died. Each baptism may be more likely to go weird in a remote area, but fewer baptisms occur there.
January 6, 2026 at 12:22 PM
On d), what was so different about Norway: were the winters colder than in Poland? Did people have beer but no water in Norwegian winters? People were unable to travel elsewhere. Many children died. Each baptism may be more likely to go weird in a remote area, but fewer baptisms occur there.
Point b) is difficult without scenarios. We don't know if it was mentioned in a routine report or an answer to a papal query about something else, or was the direct request for direction that you seem to assume. Even 1 baptism mattered.
January 6, 2026 at 12:20 PM
Point b) is difficult without scenarios. We don't know if it was mentioned in a routine report or an answer to a papal query about something else, or was the direct request for direction that you seem to assume. Even 1 baptism mattered.
Points a) and c) come down to the same thing. The meaning of nonnunquam. I can't find anything definitive beyond "sometimes". You can easily resolve this by providing a reference clearly showing how often it meant "frequently" rather than "very occasionally". I'd find that very useful.
January 6, 2026 at 12:19 PM
Points a) and c) come down to the same thing. The meaning of nonnunquam. I can't find anything definitive beyond "sometimes". You can easily resolve this by providing a reference clearly showing how often it meant "frequently" rather than "very occasionally". I'd find that very useful.
My starting position is that beer baptism is odd, and strong evidence would be required to persuade me there was ever a pattern of baptism in beer. I'm not surprised it happened as an occasional oddity, but don't see why that'd be a particularly Norwegian thing.
January 6, 2026 at 12:17 PM
My starting position is that beer baptism is odd, and strong evidence would be required to persuade me there was ever a pattern of baptism in beer. I'm not surprised it happened as an occasional oddity, but don't see why that'd be a particularly Norwegian thing.
Gulathing doesn't say beer, but it allows non-water baptism in extremis. It seems relevant, as opening the door for beer. The pope seems to be slamming that loophole shut. But that doesn't mean it had been used often. One failed baptism is one more soul in hell.
January 6, 2026 at 12:16 PM
Gulathing doesn't say beer, but it allows non-water baptism in extremis. It seems relevant, as opening the door for beer. The pope seems to be slamming that loophole shut. But that doesn't mean it had been used often. One failed baptism is one more soul in hell.
This is a strong claim, for which I'd like to see evidence. How many bishops would have rewritten rules about baptism independently of the pope? I suspect all he could say independently would be "no beer". So my guess is that there was someone, or something hard to stand up to. Gulathing, or money.
January 6, 2026 at 12:16 PM
This is a strong claim, for which I'd like to see evidence. How many bishops would have rewritten rules about baptism independently of the pope? I suspect all he could say independently would be "no beer". So my guess is that there was someone, or something hard to stand up to. Gulathing, or money.
Thanks again Steffen. Scenarios can be useful. They move from the abstract "Norwegian winters are bad" to particular instances, making differences visible. So, when might a priest have had beer but not water? When would people have warm beer but no water? But I'll try to avoid them.
January 6, 2026 at 12:14 PM
Thanks again Steffen. Scenarios can be useful. They move from the abstract "Norwegian winters are bad" to particular instances, making differences visible. So, when might a priest have had beer but not water? When would people have warm beer but no water? But I'll try to avoid them.
Thank you. I believe I now understand your argument. I'm not convinced by it.
a) had happened - "was practiced" claims a pattern
b) pope says "learned from your report", not that he'd been asked
c) opposite reading also possible
d) seems key, but the Gulating Law a simpler explanation of why Norway.
a) had happened - "was practiced" claims a pattern
b) pope says "learned from your report", not that he'd been asked
c) opposite reading also possible
d) seems key, but the Gulating Law a simpler explanation of why Norway.
January 6, 2026 at 9:27 AM
Thank you. I believe I now understand your argument. I'm not convinced by it.
a) had happened - "was practiced" claims a pattern
b) pope says "learned from your report", not that he'd been asked
c) opposite reading also possible
d) seems key, but the Gulating Law a simpler explanation of why Norway.
a) had happened - "was practiced" claims a pattern
b) pope says "learned from your report", not that he'd been asked
c) opposite reading also possible
d) seems key, but the Gulating Law a simpler explanation of why Norway.
Sorry, broken link. runor.raa.se/inscription?... Inscription Ög N288
kunar ⁓ faþi runaʀ þisaʀ ⁓ in sa flau sakiʀ ⁓ suti ui þita ⁓ in sa fl- (i)n ruþ þan ⁓ in sa bat uifin ⁓ þitta faþi ⁓
Is replaced by:
kunar ⁓ faþi runa þisa ⁓ in sa shutu saki ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ uti ⁓ in sa fl- (i)n ruþ ⁓ in said uifin ⁓ ⁓
kunar ⁓ faþi runaʀ þisaʀ ⁓ in sa flau sakiʀ ⁓ suti ui þita ⁓ in sa fl- (i)n ruþ þan ⁓ in sa bat uifin ⁓ þitta faþi ⁓
Is replaced by:
kunar ⁓ faþi runa þisa ⁓ in sa shutu saki ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ uti ⁓ in sa fl- (i)n ruþ ⁓ in said uifin ⁓ ⁓
Runor
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runor.raa.se
January 4, 2026 at 7:54 AM
Sorry, broken link. runor.raa.se/inscription?... Inscription Ög N288
kunar ⁓ faþi runaʀ þisaʀ ⁓ in sa flau sakiʀ ⁓ suti ui þita ⁓ in sa fl- (i)n ruþ þan ⁓ in sa bat uifin ⁓ þitta faþi ⁓
Is replaced by:
kunar ⁓ faþi runa þisa ⁓ in sa shutu saki ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ uti ⁓ in sa fl- (i)n ruþ ⁓ in said uifin ⁓ ⁓
kunar ⁓ faþi runaʀ þisaʀ ⁓ in sa flau sakiʀ ⁓ suti ui þita ⁓ in sa fl- (i)n ruþ þan ⁓ in sa bat uifin ⁓ þitta faþi ⁓
Is replaced by:
kunar ⁓ faþi runa þisa ⁓ in sa shutu saki ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ uti ⁓ in sa fl- (i)n ruþ ⁓ in said uifin ⁓ ⁓