Jek "Don't call me 'Jek ''Jek'' Porkins' Porkins" Porkins
@deathandsnackses.bsky.social
Dwayneocratic "The Rockpublican" Johnson
November 10, 2023 at 5:13 PM
Dwayneocratic "The Rockpublican" Johnson
Ok, that's reasonable.
November 7, 2023 at 11:18 PM
Ok, that's reasonable.
2/2
3. This implies either A. Your vote is not conditional, or B. You think the condition in 2 is not important enough to warrant withholding a vote.
That's my understanding of your position. Is that accurate?
3. This implies either A. Your vote is not conditional, or B. You think the condition in 2 is not important enough to warrant withholding a vote.
That's my understanding of your position. Is that accurate?
November 7, 2023 at 7:56 PM
2/2
3. This implies either A. Your vote is not conditional, or B. You think the condition in 2 is not important enough to warrant withholding a vote.
That's my understanding of your position. Is that accurate?
3. This implies either A. Your vote is not conditional, or B. You think the condition in 2 is not important enough to warrant withholding a vote.
That's my understanding of your position. Is that accurate?
1/2
1. You say your vote is conditional on support for your preferred vital policies (LGBTQ rights etc)
2. You say that people who condition their vote on support for e.x. a ceasefire are absolutely condemnable
1. You say your vote is conditional on support for your preferred vital policies (LGBTQ rights etc)
2. You say that people who condition their vote on support for e.x. a ceasefire are absolutely condemnable
November 7, 2023 at 7:56 PM
1/2
1. You say your vote is conditional on support for your preferred vital policies (LGBTQ rights etc)
2. You say that people who condition their vote on support for e.x. a ceasefire are absolutely condemnable
1. You say your vote is conditional on support for your preferred vital policies (LGBTQ rights etc)
2. You say that people who condition their vote on support for e.x. a ceasefire are absolutely condemnable
/shrug
Ok then
Ok then
November 7, 2023 at 7:40 PM
/shrug
Ok then
Ok then
Ok, I just don't understand how that squares with saying that your vote is conditional.
November 7, 2023 at 7:20 PM
Ok, I just don't understand how that squares with saying that your vote is conditional.
Honestly that sounds like a win-win.
November 7, 2023 at 4:06 PM
Honestly that sounds like a win-win.
OP says that the utility of a vote lies in the credible threat to withhold it. I don't think (and didn't intend to imply) that a vote means unconditional support. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to condemn people whose condition is not aiding a mass slaughter for choosing to withhold that vote.
November 7, 2023 at 4:04 PM
OP says that the utility of a vote lies in the credible threat to withhold it. I don't think (and didn't intend to imply) that a vote means unconditional support. I'm saying it doesn't make sense to condemn people whose condition is not aiding a mass slaughter for choosing to withhold that vote.
Ok, throw out everything else then - what's the difference between your red line and OP's?
November 7, 2023 at 3:02 PM
Ok, throw out everything else then - what's the difference between your red line and OP's?
Israel sure is bombing a lot of children for a state that doesn't want to bomb children.
I don't think reluctance in committing atrocities is exculpatory.
I don't think reluctance in committing atrocities is exculpatory.
November 7, 2023 at 1:37 PM
Israel sure is bombing a lot of children for a state that doesn't want to bomb children.
I don't think reluctance in committing atrocities is exculpatory.
I don't think reluctance in committing atrocities is exculpatory.
I guess I'm confused then - are you saying you believe your vote is conditional, but you don't know whether that's true until it actually happens?
Regardless, how is that red line different than OPs red line?
Regardless, how is that red line different than OPs red line?
November 7, 2023 at 1:05 PM
I guess I'm confused then - are you saying you believe your vote is conditional, but you don't know whether that's true until it actually happens?
Regardless, how is that red line different than OPs red line?
Regardless, how is that red line different than OPs red line?
Take the POTUS election then. If Biden was indistinguishable from the GOP on your preferred issues (rolling back LGBTQ protections, explicitly supporting repressive police actions, catering to Nazis, etc), what would you do?
November 7, 2023 at 2:43 AM
Take the POTUS election then. If Biden was indistinguishable from the GOP on your preferred issues (rolling back LGBTQ protections, explicitly supporting repressive police actions, catering to Nazis, etc), what would you do?
So you *would* withhold your vote in certain circumstances? What's the difference between what the OP was saying and what you're saying, then?
November 7, 2023 at 2:28 AM
So you *would* withhold your vote in certain circumstances? What's the difference between what the OP was saying and what you're saying, then?
But then why is your vote conditional?
November 7, 2023 at 2:20 AM
But then why is your vote conditional?
He can't, so he needs to convince voters why what he can practically do is a good thing. That's a problem given that what he is currently doing is abominable.
November 7, 2023 at 1:27 AM
He can't, so he needs to convince voters why what he can practically do is a good thing. That's a problem given that what he is currently doing is abominable.
But the entire thread is about how withholding your vote in the general is counterproductive
November 7, 2023 at 12:24 AM
But the entire thread is about how withholding your vote in the general is counterproductive
If I unconditionally vote for Democrats in the general, isn't that what happens? My policy preferences no longer matter.
November 7, 2023 at 12:19 AM
If I unconditionally vote for Democrats in the general, isn't that what happens? My policy preferences no longer matter.
I'm a dues-paying member of DSA and I do vote in local elections, I just don't see it helping much and I often wrestle with the idea that electoralism is doing anything at all. The abhorrent stance of the administration on Palestine just makes me want to give up entirely. I dunno.
November 6, 2023 at 11:02 PM
I'm a dues-paying member of DSA and I do vote in local elections, I just don't see it helping much and I often wrestle with the idea that electoralism is doing anything at all. The abhorrent stance of the administration on Palestine just makes me want to give up entirely. I dunno.
Sure, but what do you mean in this context?
November 6, 2023 at 10:55 PM
Sure, but what do you mean in this context?
So how do we hold them accountable? And how can we do that in such a way that stops the mass killing in Palestine? Are the answers just "vote for someone else in the primary and convince others to too" and "there is no way to do that", respectively?
November 6, 2023 at 10:51 PM
So how do we hold them accountable? And how can we do that in such a way that stops the mass killing in Palestine? Are the answers just "vote for someone else in the primary and convince others to too" and "there is no way to do that", respectively?
Except for the need for litigation fundraising and such, I guess, but even that doesn't seem to matter since Democrats always seem to have bottomless pits of money for godawful purposes and are empty-handed when it comes to (things I consider to be) important and morally necessary things.
November 6, 2023 at 10:48 PM
Except for the need for litigation fundraising and such, I guess, but even that doesn't seem to matter since Democrats always seem to have bottomless pits of money for godawful purposes and are empty-handed when it comes to (things I consider to be) important and morally necessary things.
I guess my concern is that we don't actually have any power over the party if the politicians simply decide not to acquiesce to the demands of the primary voters, because once you get the nomination those people don't matter anymore.
November 6, 2023 at 10:47 PM
I guess my concern is that we don't actually have any power over the party if the politicians simply decide not to acquiesce to the demands of the primary voters, because once you get the nomination those people don't matter anymore.
(And the entire issue is caused by our FPTP two-party system in the first place, and no party will ever have an incentive to change that, will they?)
November 6, 2023 at 10:25 PM
(And the entire issue is caused by our FPTP two-party system in the first place, and no party will ever have an incentive to change that, will they?)
2. The structural issues are deeply embedded in the American system itself, as well as the parties. If the Dems simply choose not to have a primary - which they might not, either de facto or de jure - coalitions have no power, right?
November 6, 2023 at 10:24 PM
2. The structural issues are deeply embedded in the American system itself, as well as the parties. If the Dems simply choose not to have a primary - which they might not, either de facto or de jure - coalitions have no power, right?
1. Timeliness is a concern because of situations like Palestine, where some dire event is taking place and we do not have an existing coalition. There is no means of direct recourse, nothing we can do if withholding our vote is out of the question.
November 6, 2023 at 10:23 PM
1. Timeliness is a concern because of situations like Palestine, where some dire event is taking place and we do not have an existing coalition. There is no means of direct recourse, nothing we can do if withholding our vote is out of the question.