Zeno Rogue
@zenorogue.bsky.social
roguelikes, mathematics, non-Euclidean geometry
HyperRogue (non-Euclidean roguelike), RogueViz, ZenoRogue (non-Euclidean visualization) on YouTube, Hydra Slayer (math roguelike).
HyperRogue (non-Euclidean roguelike), RogueViz, ZenoRogue (non-Euclidean visualization) on YouTube, Hydra Slayer (math roguelike).
Most games marketed as roguelike today have no permadeath.
You seem to say that the classification of a game depends on how it is played, which is useless. Mostly every game with a character who could die can be played permadeath, and in mostly every offline roguelike permadeath is optional.
You seem to say that the classification of a game depends on how it is played, which is useless. Mostly every game with a character who could die can be played permadeath, and in mostly every offline roguelike permadeath is optional.
November 16, 2025 at 8:46 AM
Most games marketed as roguelike today have no permadeath.
You seem to say that the classification of a game depends on how it is played, which is useless. Mostly every game with a character who could die can be played permadeath, and in mostly every offline roguelike permadeath is optional.
You seem to say that the classification of a game depends on how it is played, which is useless. Mostly every game with a character who could die can be played permadeath, and in mostly every offline roguelike permadeath is optional.
But is not permafailure how hardcore XCOM fans play them?
November 15, 2025 at 2:32 PM
But is not permafailure how hardcore XCOM fans play them?
I do not know what definition you are talking about, but better not to trust the source you got it from :)
November 15, 2025 at 12:03 PM
I do not know what definition you are talking about, but better not to trust the source you got it from :)
Rogue devs says that his favorite roguelike is Minecraft and what they actually wanted to create. Minecraft dev says he was heavily inspired by roguelikes. The most popular game in the roguelike community is Caves of Qud, and most people seem to play it with checkpoints. That should settle the case.
November 15, 2025 at 11:49 AM
Rogue devs says that his favorite roguelike is Minecraft and what they actually wanted to create. Minecraft dev says he was heavily inspired by roguelikes. The most popular game in the roguelike community is Caves of Qud, and most people seem to play it with checkpoints. That should settle the case.
Of course it is a roguelike. Why would it depend on whether you play hardcore?
November 15, 2025 at 8:49 AM
Of course it is a roguelike. Why would it depend on whether you play hardcore?
Stop marketing games with forced resets as roguelike... it is not how popular games in the roguelike genre work. It is not even how the most popular games heavily inspired by the roguelike genre work.
November 15, 2025 at 8:29 AM
Stop marketing games with forced resets as roguelike... it is not how popular games in the roguelike genre work. It is not even how the most popular games heavily inspired by the roguelike genre work.
We roguelike fans hate them too, and we especially hate that they are marketed as roguelike.
November 14, 2025 at 6:01 PM
We roguelike fans hate them too, and we especially hate that they are marketed as roguelike.
Pseudo-gambling games with forced resets have nothing to do with the roguelike genre, just using the term as a meaningless buzzword. (In actual roguelikes such as Moonring or Caves of Qud you do not have to reset when you die.)
November 14, 2025 at 5:58 PM
Pseudo-gambling games with forced resets have nothing to do with the roguelike genre, just using the term as a meaningless buzzword. (In actual roguelikes such as Moonring or Caves of Qud you do not have to reset when you die.)
Controlling time in a shooter turned out great in DoomRL, but the same idea (take a single-character immersive game and add control time) could be added to many more genres, possibly leading to something great too.
Adding ASCII would be interesting too.
Adding ASCII would be interesting too.
November 14, 2025 at 7:50 AM
Controlling time in a shooter turned out great in DoomRL, but the same idea (take a single-character immersive game and add control time) could be added to many more genres, possibly leading to something great too.
Adding ASCII would be interesting too.
Adding ASCII would be interesting too.
I do not know why you think that all the games you mention are undoubtedly roguelikes. They are randomized run-based games I guess? "Randomized run-based" is not a genre. Moonring and Caves of Qud are roguelikes but not run-based. Legerdemain is a roguelike but not randomized (and not run-based).
November 14, 2025 at 7:24 AM
I do not know why you think that all the games you mention are undoubtedly roguelikes. They are randomized run-based games I guess? "Randomized run-based" is not a genre. Moonring and Caves of Qud are roguelikes but not run-based. Legerdemain is a roguelike but not randomized (and not run-based).
So "a game in which you move like in Rogue" is a genre just like "a game where you move like in Mario" is a genre, and "a game where you move and fight like in Doom" is a genre. And calling any of the games you mention (maybe except NecroDancer) a roguelike in r/roguelikes is a blasphemy.
November 14, 2025 at 7:17 AM
So "a game in which you move like in Rogue" is a genre just like "a game where you move like in Mario" is a genre, and "a game where you move and fight like in Doom" is a genre. And calling any of the games you mention (maybe except NecroDancer) a roguelike in r/roguelikes is a blasphemy.
Yes, roguelike is a genre.
People in 1993 wanted to create a space about a specific exploration/combat system that was so good they wanted more of, and called it after the game that popularized it, Rogue. It is still the meaning used in www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/.
People in 1993 wanted to create a space about a specific exploration/combat system that was so good they wanted more of, and called it after the game that popularized it, Rogue. It is still the meaning used in www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/.
November 14, 2025 at 7:12 AM
Yes, roguelike is a genre.
People in 1993 wanted to create a space about a specific exploration/combat system that was so good they wanted more of, and called it after the game that popularized it, Rogue. It is still the meaning used in www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/.
People in 1993 wanted to create a space about a specific exploration/combat system that was so good they wanted more of, and called it after the game that popularized it, Rogue. It is still the meaning used in www.reddit.com/r/roguelikes/.
Diablo was a great hit, it was clear to everyone what it was (I mean, to everyone who knew what a roguelike was), and that it was not as fun as free roguelikes (including the devs, who said that, yeah, it is not going to be as fun as NetHack). But they coined "ARPG" for it, not "action roguelike".
November 13, 2025 at 8:28 PM
Diablo was a great hit, it was clear to everyone what it was (I mean, to everyone who knew what a roguelike was), and that it was not as fun as free roguelikes (including the devs, who said that, yeah, it is not going to be as fun as NetHack). But they coined "ARPG" for it, not "action roguelike".
Roguelike communities praised free games. Gamer media tend to be commercially biased. Especially before the "indie revolution". Free games and communities did not exist for them. Before The Binding of Isaac, you would never hear about roguelikes, outside of the roguelike communities.
November 13, 2025 at 8:13 PM
Roguelike communities praised free games. Gamer media tend to be commercially biased. Especially before the "indie revolution". Free games and communities did not exist for them. Before The Binding of Isaac, you would never hear about roguelikes, outside of the roguelike communities.
With all their equipment, but also an angry and powerful ghost, and whatever killed them. (This feature actually originated in NetHack.) The manual mentions "With the dread day of Ragnarok approaching, many have quested forth [...]. No one has ever returned.", so it fits into the narrative too.
November 12, 2025 at 5:31 PM
With all their equipment, but also an angry and powerful ghost, and whatever killed them. (This feature actually originated in NetHack.) The manual mentions "With the dread day of Ragnarok approaching, many have quested forth [...]. No one has ever returned.", so it fits into the narrative too.
Of course incorporating the loop of "play again until you beat it" in the narrative is always cool.
Baroque did it in the late 90s, so decades before Hades.
In the first roguelike I have played, Valhalla, you could find the exact place where your earlier character died. That was amazing.
Baroque did it in the late 90s, so decades before Hades.
In the first roguelike I have played, Valhalla, you could find the exact place where your earlier character died. That was amazing.
November 12, 2025 at 5:28 PM
Of course incorporating the loop of "play again until you beat it" in the narrative is always cool.
Baroque did it in the late 90s, so decades before Hades.
In the first roguelike I have played, Valhalla, you could find the exact place where your earlier character died. That was amazing.
Baroque did it in the late 90s, so decades before Hades.
In the first roguelike I have played, Valhalla, you could find the exact place where your earlier character died. That was amazing.
You do get a tangible feeling of progression. Late-game characters are much more powerful than the starting characters.
You do get narrative (Caves of Qud got some awards for its narrative).
If you do not like losing your progression, you can disable permadeath.
You do get narrative (Caves of Qud got some awards for its narrative).
If you do not like losing your progression, you can disable permadeath.
November 12, 2025 at 5:23 PM
You do get a tangible feeling of progression. Late-game characters are much more powerful than the starting characters.
You do get narrative (Caves of Qud got some awards for its narrative).
If you do not like losing your progression, you can disable permadeath.
You do get narrative (Caves of Qud got some awards for its narrative).
If you do not like losing your progression, you can disable permadeath.
Progression is great indeed, but why meta?
Is there any specific reason why you would pick a run-based game with metaprogression over a non-run-based RPG (I am mostly thinking about roguelike non-run-based RPG such as Caves of Qud, but other RPGs work here too)?
Is there any specific reason why you would pick a run-based game with metaprogression over a non-run-based RPG (I am mostly thinking about roguelike non-run-based RPG such as Caves of Qud, but other RPGs work here too)?
November 12, 2025 at 5:21 PM
Progression is great indeed, but why meta?
Is there any specific reason why you would pick a run-based game with metaprogression over a non-run-based RPG (I am mostly thinking about roguelike non-run-based RPG such as Caves of Qud, but other RPGs work here too)?
Is there any specific reason why you would pick a run-based game with metaprogression over a non-run-based RPG (I am mostly thinking about roguelike non-run-based RPG such as Caves of Qud, but other RPGs work here too)?
(Noita takes from the simulationist roguelike branch while also pointlessly taking the bad aspects from the gamist branch. Why forced permadeath, small inventories, randomized perk selection? Simulationist roguelike(-like)s such as Caves of Qud, Minecraft, Terraria, etc. are better without that.)
November 12, 2025 at 8:28 AM
(Noita takes from the simulationist roguelike branch while also pointlessly taking the bad aspects from the gamist branch. Why forced permadeath, small inventories, randomized perk selection? Simulationist roguelike(-like)s such as Caves of Qud, Minecraft, Terraria, etc. are better without that.)
You seem to like good run-based games so you should love Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. Many of the most popular roguelikes are not run-based (e.g., Caves of Qud), but judging by the low rating of Noita you would not enjoy them. Although it depends on what you do not like in Noita.
November 12, 2025 at 8:21 AM
You seem to like good run-based games so you should love Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup. Many of the most popular roguelikes are not run-based (e.g., Caves of Qud), but judging by the low rating of Noita you would not enjoy them. Although it depends on what you do not like in Noita.
This is because you have played only a few actual roguelikes and they were not the best in the genre. Here is a good collection of roguelike reviews: www.resetera.com/threads/i-pl... , you could try to find something here.
November 12, 2025 at 7:49 AM
This is because you have played only a few actual roguelikes and they were not the best in the genre. Here is a good collection of roguelike reviews: www.resetera.com/threads/i-pl... , you could try to find something here.
Dwarf Fortress is on roguelike lists because of its "adventure mode", which is indeed a roguelike; not because of its main mode, which is indeed a colony sim, although with lots of influences from the roguelike culture.
November 12, 2025 at 7:46 AM
Dwarf Fortress is on roguelike lists because of its "adventure mode", which is indeed a roguelike; not because of its main mode, which is indeed a colony sim, although with lots of influences from the roguelike culture.
In roguelikes permadeath is usually an optional feature for hardcore players. Moonring, Caves of Qud, Tales of Maj'Eyal...
The artificial extending of the playtime (by punishing gameplay + forced resets + extensive metaprogression, although runs tend to be short) is more of a roguelite thing.
The artificial extending of the playtime (by punishing gameplay + forced resets + extensive metaprogression, although runs tend to be short) is more of a roguelite thing.
November 12, 2025 at 7:38 AM
In roguelikes permadeath is usually an optional feature for hardcore players. Moonring, Caves of Qud, Tales of Maj'Eyal...
The artificial extending of the playtime (by punishing gameplay + forced resets + extensive metaprogression, although runs tend to be short) is more of a roguelite thing.
The artificial extending of the playtime (by punishing gameplay + forced resets + extensive metaprogression, although runs tend to be short) is more of a roguelite thing.
What do you think about Caves of Qud, Moonring, Ancient Domains of Mystery, etc.?
November 11, 2025 at 12:50 PM
What do you think about Caves of Qud, Moonring, Ancient Domains of Mystery, etc.?
Rogue was named Rogue because it features just one character. Controlling one character directly, with clicks directly corresponding to the actions of that character. Roguelikes feel like you are controlling the flow of time, multi-unit games do not. Otherwise, XCOM is very similar to roguelikes.
November 11, 2025 at 7:36 AM
Rogue was named Rogue because it features just one character. Controlling one character directly, with clicks directly corresponding to the actions of that character. Roguelikes feel like you are controlling the flow of time, multi-unit games do not. Otherwise, XCOM is very similar to roguelikes.