but does it have grok

of course! totally agree, it really makes me rethink a lot of things, but I think it’s good to not take things at face value - even things we learn in school can be wrong, like how residential schools weren’t part of the curriculum for a long time. always appreciate a non-combative dialogue!

yeah it sounds like a lot of it is still disputed - the eye witness accounts in the Death Toll section all say there was no evidence of anything happening in the square itself, just outside of it. hard to say what happened with so little info, but important to watch for propaganda from both sides

sorry for derailing though! just thought these were interesting reads that challenged what I thought I knew as facts - trying to have a bit of healthy skepticism and avoid falling for propaganda myself :)

personally I think the first article was a bit generous, but I just think it’s important to see that we get fed propaganda as well, not just china. interesting to see people talking to Chinese people on rednote and learning that a lot of what we know about China isn’t true!

the propaganda is the exaggeration of some facts, and omission of others. calling it a massacre is the misleading part - not saying china did nothing wrong, but what we are told isn’t the whole truth. here is a better link with some more info and sources - worldaffairs.blog/2019/06/02/t...

I just learned this myself, but the whole Tiananmen massacre myth actually comes from western propaganda - we're fed a lot of propaganda about China that misleads us on what actually happened www.dw.com/en/fact-chec...