Christian Lee Seibold
@clseibold.bsky.social
Hello! Gay progressive from Sioux City, IA. I write articles about Theology and Religion. I have a B.A. in Theology from Briar Cliff Uni. Not Christian or Jewish, but prefer Jewish Theology/practice.
https://theologyinthebalance.substack.com
Pro-palestine.
https://theologyinthebalance.substack.com
Pro-palestine.
Huh?! Mamdani didn't even rescind calling him a fascist, let alone recant any of his views. How did he back down?
November 21, 2025 at 10:08 PM
Huh?! Mamdani didn't even rescind calling him a fascist, let alone recant any of his views. How did he back down?
People can read the other thread for some of the reasons why the Theology is this way. There are good reasons!
November 21, 2025 at 9:51 PM
People can read the other thread for some of the reasons why the Theology is this way. There are good reasons!
I'm gonna be blunt here, if you think God is going to punish a person who was raped for never having forgiven their rapist, then we fundamentally disagree about how Merciful God is. Your God is spiteful, has unrealistic expectations, and doesn't forgive human flaws. Mine is none of those things.
November 21, 2025 at 9:37 PM
It is also a cherry-picking of Jesus' ministry, and a cherry-picking of the Bible. Jesus gave us moral aspirations, but he also *defended sinners.* Paul emphasizes faith, James emphasized works.
November 21, 2025 at 9:29 PM
It is also a cherry-picking of Jesus' ministry, and a cherry-picking of the Bible. Jesus gave us moral aspirations, but he also *defended sinners.* Paul emphasizes faith, James emphasized works.
Forgiveness is something we aspire to, but it is NOT a salvific requirement. Why? Because that renders Jesus' death insufficient, and it deminishes God's Mercy and God's grace.
While Catholicism views works differently, it says basically the same thing.
While Catholicism views works differently, it says basically the same thing.
November 21, 2025 at 9:29 PM
Forgiveness is something we aspire to, but it is NOT a salvific requirement. Why? Because that renders Jesus' death insufficient, and it deminishes God's Mercy and God's grace.
While Catholicism views works differently, it says basically the same thing.
While Catholicism views works differently, it says basically the same thing.
To suggest that God will judge you by how much you have forgiven others is completely inconsistent with almost every single Christian denomination there is. This suggestion has effectively taken ALL of God's grace out of the picture, and you have rendered Jesus' death meaningless or insufficient.
November 21, 2025 at 9:29 PM
To suggest that God will judge you by how much you have forgiven others is completely inconsistent with almost every single Christian denomination there is. This suggestion has effectively taken ALL of God's grace out of the picture, and you have rendered Jesus' death meaningless or insufficient.
I've been arguing in the Protestant framework because that's what I believe the thread started as, but seeing as this is a different conversation, you seem to be arguing a framework different from all of the above that I've listed.
November 21, 2025 at 9:02 PM
I've been arguing in the Protestant framework because that's what I believe the thread started as, but seeing as this is a different conversation, you seem to be arguing a framework different from all of the above that I've listed.
And Judaism believes all works and deeds matter, but they are contextual, not transactional, and true repair with the person who was harmed is a required component.
November 21, 2025 at 9:02 PM
And Judaism believes all works and deeds matter, but they are contextual, not transactional, and true repair with the person who was harmed is a required component.
Catholicism distinguishes between mortal sins and venial sins, and repentance includes contrition, confession, absolution, and satisfaction.
November 21, 2025 at 9:02 PM
Catholicism distinguishes between mortal sins and venial sins, and repentance includes contrition, confession, absolution, and satisfaction.
So, please tell me which denomination we are arguing in, because you've mixed things up. In Protestantism, God wouldn't judge a believer who aspired to do good with not having forgiven. That's the whole point of faith alone and Jesus' death.
November 21, 2025 at 9:02 PM
So, please tell me which denomination we are arguing in, because you've mixed things up. In Protestantism, God wouldn't judge a believer who aspired to do good with not having forgiven. That's the whole point of faith alone and Jesus' death.
What you are suggesting would be akin to the Pelagian Heresy. In Christianity, people do not get into heaven through perfection, and the doctrine of Faith Alone was meant to prevent works from being transactional. And yet works matter, thus works come out of faith. *That* is Protestant Theology.
November 21, 2025 at 8:44 PM
What you are suggesting would be akin to the Pelagian Heresy. In Christianity, people do not get into heaven through perfection, and the doctrine of Faith Alone was meant to prevent works from being transactional. And yet works matter, thus works come out of faith. *That* is Protestant Theology.
You cannot ask everybody to forgive always and then judge those who don't forgive. That you have to mention God's judgement here means you failed to understand the very core of Christian Theology: Jesus died for our SINS. We are not obligated to be perfect human beings, we are obligated to aspire.
November 21, 2025 at 8:39 PM
You cannot ask everybody to forgive always and then judge those who don't forgive. That you have to mention God's judgement here means you failed to understand the very core of Christian Theology: Jesus died for our SINS. We are not obligated to be perfect human beings, we are obligated to aspire.
Either you forgive people for not being able to forgive others, you say only God's forgiveness matters, or you say only the forgiveness of the person who was harmed matters. You cannot have it all ways.
November 21, 2025 at 8:39 PM
Either you forgive people for not being able to forgive others, you say only God's forgiveness matters, or you say only the forgiveness of the person who was harmed matters. You cannot have it all ways.
It is a travesty of modern Christian beliefs to force the req of forgiveness on flawed humans without acknowledging that a Merciful God contextualizes human responses. It is not about "repented enough", and whether MGT changes or not remains to be seen. She's not apologized for everything she did
November 21, 2025 at 8:39 PM
It is a travesty of modern Christian beliefs to force the req of forgiveness on flawed humans without acknowledging that a Merciful God contextualizes human responses. It is not about "repented enough", and whether MGT changes or not remains to be seen. She's not apologized for everything she did
Reposted by Christian Lee Seibold
I'm gonna be blunt here, if you think God is going to punish a person who was raped for never having forgiven their rapist, then we fundamentally disagree about how Merciful God is. Your God is spiteful, has unrealistic expectations, and doesn't forgive human flaws. Mine is none of those things.
November 21, 2025 at 8:26 PM
I'm gonna be blunt here, if you think God is going to punish a person who was raped for never having forgiven their rapist, then we fundamentally disagree about how Merciful God is. Your God is spiteful, has unrealistic expectations, and doesn't forgive human flaws. Mine is none of those things.
I'm gonna be blunt here, if you think God is going to punish a person who was raped for never having forgiven their rapist, then we fundamentally disagree about how Merciful God is. Your God is spiteful, has unrealistic expectations, and doesn't forgive human flaws. Mine is none of those things.
November 21, 2025 at 8:26 PM
I'm gonna be blunt here, if you think God is going to punish a person who was raped for never having forgiven their rapist, then we fundamentally disagree about how Merciful God is. Your God is spiteful, has unrealistic expectations, and doesn't forgive human flaws. Mine is none of those things.
Never said anything about "repented enough", but you also cannot ignore God's call for justice. Which is also why I don't hold to Christian Theology, I hold to Jewish Theology. In face, I see this as the *biggest* problem with Christianity - hiding your evil under forced forgiveness.
November 21, 2025 at 8:23 PM
Never said anything about "repented enough", but you also cannot ignore God's call for justice. Which is also why I don't hold to Christian Theology, I hold to Jewish Theology. In face, I see this as the *biggest* problem with Christianity - hiding your evil under forced forgiveness.
I should make it clear that Jesus in Luke 17:3-4 specifically says we forgive *after* they repent, not before. Matthew 6:14-15 and the Lord's Prayer both lack this detail, but, imo, it can be implied.
November 21, 2025 at 6:29 PM
I should make it clear that Jesus in Luke 17:3-4 specifically says we forgive *after* they repent, not before. Matthew 6:14-15 and the Lord's Prayer both lack this detail, but, imo, it can be implied.
When I look at Jesus' teachings, I see very high standards we should aspire to, but then I also see him associating with people who constantly failed those standards. In many ways he's doing what the Bible does in the OT: using hyperbolic language to motivate.
November 21, 2025 at 6:29 PM
When I look at Jesus' teachings, I see very high standards we should aspire to, but then I also see him associating with people who constantly failed those standards. In many ways he's doing what the Bible does in the OT: using hyperbolic language to motivate.
Lots of Theologians have struggled with the idea of forgiveness vs. justice. They are almost contradictory if you hold a more expansive definition of what it means to forgive.
November 21, 2025 at 6:29 PM
Lots of Theologians have struggled with the idea of forgiveness vs. justice. They are almost contradictory if you hold a more expansive definition of what it means to forgive.
It also depends on what we mean to "forgive". I believe forgiveness does not require repairing relationships, only letting go of one's bitterness and spitefulness towards another. In that case, forgiveness is really for yourself, not the other person.
November 21, 2025 at 6:05 PM
It also depends on what we mean to "forgive". I believe forgiveness does not require repairing relationships, only letting go of one's bitterness and spitefulness towards another. In that case, forgiveness is really for yourself, not the other person.
Sure, and I believe that a truly compassionate God does not penalize people for being unable to forgive. I can cite Jonah as a prooftext for this, but I'd rather restrain from prooftexting fights, because it's really not that helpful. The Theology here is not that simple.
November 21, 2025 at 6:05 PM
Sure, and I believe that a truly compassionate God does not penalize people for being unable to forgive. I can cite Jonah as a prooftext for this, but I'd rather restrain from prooftexting fights, because it's really not that helpful. The Theology here is not that simple.
You are clearly reacting to the point about "never" forgiving her. Fine. But just like you are flawed, lots of us are flawed. I believe God takes into account our trauma and the harm done to us when he looks at how we have forgiven or treated others. That to me is what a compassionate God would do.
November 21, 2025 at 4:16 AM
You are clearly reacting to the point about "never" forgiving her. Fine. But just like you are flawed, lots of us are flawed. I believe God takes into account our trauma and the harm done to us when he looks at how we have forgiven or treated others. That to me is what a compassionate God would do.