CUIMC Stands Up
@cuimcstandsup.bsky.social
Grassroots group of Columbia University Irving Medical Center affiliates standing up for patients, research, students, academic freedom, and science everywhere.
Views ours only, not Columbia’s, although we wish they were!
https://www.cuimcstandsup.org
Views ours only, not Columbia’s, although we wish they were!
https://www.cuimcstandsup.org
Pinned
To Columbia’s trustees: Protect the future of higher education
Even before coming to power this year, President Donald Trump’s administration made its plans for targeting American higher education abundantly clear. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FR65Ci...
www.columbiaspectator.com
We published our 6 calls to action for the CU board of trustees today: www.columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2025...
“We are at a crossroads in history where we can either succumb to authoritarianism or stand up against it.”
“We are at a crossroads in history where we can either succumb to authoritarianism or stand up against it.”
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
The snake is growing.
✊🏽✊🏻✊🏿✊🏾✊🏼
Vanderbilt, Texas, AZ…now’s the time.
The world is watching.
The resistance is here.
#NoLoyaltyOaths
#NoKings
#DefendHigherEd
✊🏽✊🏻✊🏿✊🏾✊🏼
Vanderbilt, Texas, AZ…now’s the time.
The world is watching.
The resistance is here.
#NoLoyaltyOaths
#NoKings
#DefendHigherEd
October 18, 2025 at 4:59 PM
The snake is growing.
✊🏽✊🏻✊🏿✊🏾✊🏼
Vanderbilt, Texas, AZ…now’s the time.
The world is watching.
The resistance is here.
#NoLoyaltyOaths
#NoKings
#DefendHigherEd
✊🏽✊🏻✊🏿✊🏾✊🏼
Vanderbilt, Texas, AZ…now’s the time.
The world is watching.
The resistance is here.
#NoLoyaltyOaths
#NoKings
#DefendHigherEd
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
Students, faculty, & campus workers are leading this incredible pushback.
We will not back down in defense of higher education & our democracy.
There is an unstoppable wave of unified rejection of Trump’s authoritarian agenda cresting throughout higher education.
Join Us.
#DefendHigherEd
We will not back down in defense of higher education & our democracy.
There is an unstoppable wave of unified rejection of Trump’s authoritarian agenda cresting throughout higher education.
Join Us.
#DefendHigherEd
October 16, 2025 at 5:39 PM
Students, faculty, & campus workers are leading this incredible pushback.
We will not back down in defense of higher education & our democracy.
There is an unstoppable wave of unified rejection of Trump’s authoritarian agenda cresting throughout higher education.
Join Us.
#DefendHigherEd
We will not back down in defense of higher education & our democracy.
There is an unstoppable wave of unified rejection of Trump’s authoritarian agenda cresting throughout higher education.
Join Us.
#DefendHigherEd
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
🚨🚨🚨
And THREE stood up!
Penn has joined MIT & Brown in rejecting Trump’s loyalty oath compact.
When we join together and fight back, WE WIN!
No amount of federal bribery is worth surrendering the freedom to question, explore, and dissent.
LET’S GO!
#DefendHigherEd
@aaup-penn.bsky.social
And THREE stood up!
Penn has joined MIT & Brown in rejecting Trump’s loyalty oath compact.
When we join together and fight back, WE WIN!
No amount of federal bribery is worth surrendering the freedom to question, explore, and dissent.
LET’S GO!
#DefendHigherEd
@aaup-penn.bsky.social
Penn rejects White House proposal for special funding treatment
With the decision, Penn becomes the third university to decline the offer.
www.thedp.com
October 16, 2025 at 5:24 PM
🚨🚨🚨
And THREE stood up!
Penn has joined MIT & Brown in rejecting Trump’s loyalty oath compact.
When we join together and fight back, WE WIN!
No amount of federal bribery is worth surrendering the freedom to question, explore, and dissent.
LET’S GO!
#DefendHigherEd
@aaup-penn.bsky.social
And THREE stood up!
Penn has joined MIT & Brown in rejecting Trump’s loyalty oath compact.
When we join together and fight back, WE WIN!
No amount of federal bribery is worth surrendering the freedom to question, explore, and dissent.
LET’S GO!
#DefendHigherEd
@aaup-penn.bsky.social
🎙️ Last week, a group of Columbia professors — most of them Jewish — took a stand. Risking reprisal, they publicly rejected the university’s recent incorporation of a controversial definition of antisemitism. Their statements, excerpted here, can be read in full at cu-standsup.org/events/free-....
October 9, 2025 at 5:01 PM
🎙️ Last week, a group of Columbia professors — most of them Jewish — took a stand. Risking reprisal, they publicly rejected the university’s recent incorporation of a controversial definition of antisemitism. Their statements, excerpted here, can be read in full at cu-standsup.org/events/free-....
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
NO LOYALTY OATHS IN HIGHER ED!
Trump's attacks on our universities are an attempt to consolidate power. This loyalty oath directly undermines our right to academic freedom & goes against every democratic principle our country should uphold.
Please click below, sign, & share.
#DefendHigherEd
Trump's attacks on our universities are an attempt to consolidate power. This loyalty oath directly undermines our right to academic freedom & goes against every democratic principle our country should uphold.
Please click below, sign, & share.
#DefendHigherEd
University Administrations: Reject Trump's "Loyalty Oath" Compacts
The Trump administration is trying to blackmail schools to let him and his unqualified bureaucrats run our schools. They want to dictate what schools teach, who they admit and hire, what researchers s...
actionnetwork.org
October 7, 2025 at 4:37 PM
NO LOYALTY OATHS IN HIGHER ED!
Trump's attacks on our universities are an attempt to consolidate power. This loyalty oath directly undermines our right to academic freedom & goes against every democratic principle our country should uphold.
Please click below, sign, & share.
#DefendHigherEd
Trump's attacks on our universities are an attempt to consolidate power. This loyalty oath directly undermines our right to academic freedom & goes against every democratic principle our country should uphold.
Please click below, sign, & share.
#DefendHigherEd
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
Spread the word: when scientific training and research funding is cut, EVERYBODY loses.
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
Proposed cuts could have ‘catastrophic effect,’ 110 biomedical, health sciences industry leaders tell Congress
Proposed cuts will have “a catastrophic effect on the advancement of biomedical and biotechnology capabilities in the United States,” more than 100 leaders of biomedical/health sciences companies tell...
www.statnews.com
July 1, 2025 at 8:26 PM
Spread the word: when scientific training and research funding is cut, EVERYBODY loses.
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
BREAKING: WE WON!!!
💥 💥 💥
Federal Judge William G. Young ruled today in our lawsuit against the Trump administration that the policy of arresting, detaining, & deporting noncitizen students & faculty members for their pro-Palestinian advocacy violates the 1st Amendment.
Full ruling here:
💥 💥 💥
Federal Judge William G. Young ruled today in our lawsuit against the Trump administration that the policy of arresting, detaining, & deporting noncitizen students & faculty members for their pro-Palestinian advocacy violates the 1st Amendment.
Full ruling here:
Findings of Fact & Conclusions of Law – #261 in American Association of University Professors v. Rubio (D. Mass., 1:25-cv-10685) – CourtListener.com
Judge William G. Young: ORDER entered. FINDINGS OF FACT AND RULINGS OF LAW, PURSUANT TO FED. R. CIV. P. 52(A)(Sonnenberg, Elizabeth) (Additional attachment(s) added on 9/30/2025: # 1 Main Document) (J...
www.courtlistener.com
September 30, 2025 at 5:43 PM
BREAKING: WE WON!!!
💥 💥 💥
Federal Judge William G. Young ruled today in our lawsuit against the Trump administration that the policy of arresting, detaining, & deporting noncitizen students & faculty members for their pro-Palestinian advocacy violates the 1st Amendment.
Full ruling here:
💥 💥 💥
Federal Judge William G. Young ruled today in our lawsuit against the Trump administration that the policy of arresting, detaining, & deporting noncitizen students & faculty members for their pro-Palestinian advocacy violates the 1st Amendment.
Full ruling here:
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
🚨🚨🚨
NEW AAUP Report Analyzes Trump Admin Weaponization of Title VI
to Undermine Civil Rights Protections.
#Academicfreedom
#AcademicSky
#DefendHigherEd
NEW AAUP Report Analyzes Trump Admin Weaponization of Title VI
to Undermine Civil Rights Protections.
#Academicfreedom
#AcademicSky
#DefendHigherEd
On Title VI, Discrimination, and Academic Freedom
This report considers how Title VI has been used to create an enforcement apparatus that sidesteps long-established AAUP-recommended procedures of shared governance and offers recommendations for facu...
www.aaup.org
September 22, 2025 at 2:31 PM
🚨🚨🚨
NEW AAUP Report Analyzes Trump Admin Weaponization of Title VI
to Undermine Civil Rights Protections.
#Academicfreedom
#AcademicSky
#DefendHigherEd
NEW AAUP Report Analyzes Trump Admin Weaponization of Title VI
to Undermine Civil Rights Protections.
#Academicfreedom
#AcademicSky
#DefendHigherEd
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
The AAUP & @aft.org are fighting back to remind our elected leaders that higher education & public health research are transformative public goods.
We must keep life-saving NIH research fully funded & stop the Trump admin’s devastating funding cuts that are halting medical breakthroughs.
We must keep life-saving NIH research fully funded & stop the Trump admin’s devastating funding cuts that are halting medical breakthroughs.
September 21, 2025 at 7:33 PM
The AAUP & @aft.org are fighting back to remind our elected leaders that higher education & public health research are transformative public goods.
We must keep life-saving NIH research fully funded & stop the Trump admin’s devastating funding cuts that are halting medical breakthroughs.
We must keep life-saving NIH research fully funded & stop the Trump admin’s devastating funding cuts that are halting medical breakthroughs.
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
The Resistance Is Inevitable.
We’re sick & tired of ICE & FBI agents profiling, harassing, & violently arresting our neighbors.
#wearealldc
Incredible turnout in DC yesterday, including a strong AAUP contingent.
@aaupmason.bsky.social
@gwaaup.bsky.social
@afthighered.bsky.social
We’re sick & tired of ICE & FBI agents profiling, harassing, & violently arresting our neighbors.
#wearealldc
Incredible turnout in DC yesterday, including a strong AAUP contingent.
@aaupmason.bsky.social
@gwaaup.bsky.social
@afthighered.bsky.social
September 7, 2025 at 3:17 PM
The Resistance Is Inevitable.
We’re sick & tired of ICE & FBI agents profiling, harassing, & violently arresting our neighbors.
#wearealldc
Incredible turnout in DC yesterday, including a strong AAUP contingent.
@aaupmason.bsky.social
@gwaaup.bsky.social
@afthighered.bsky.social
We’re sick & tired of ICE & FBI agents profiling, harassing, & violently arresting our neighbors.
#wearealldc
Incredible turnout in DC yesterday, including a strong AAUP contingent.
@aaupmason.bsky.social
@gwaaup.bsky.social
@afthighered.bsky.social
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
In April, the AAUP & our Harvard chapter sued the Trump admin for demanding that Harvard censor speech & restructure core operations or else face $8.7 billion in funding cuts.
We hope this decision clarifies to Harvard’s administration that bargaining w/ tyrannical authoritarians is unacceptable.
We hope this decision clarifies to Harvard’s administration that bargaining w/ tyrannical authoritarians is unacceptable.
September 4, 2025 at 12:36 AM
In April, the AAUP & our Harvard chapter sued the Trump admin for demanding that Harvard censor speech & restructure core operations or else face $8.7 billion in funding cuts.
We hope this decision clarifies to Harvard’s administration that bargaining w/ tyrannical authoritarians is unacceptable.
We hope this decision clarifies to Harvard’s administration that bargaining w/ tyrannical authoritarians is unacceptable.
TODAY! 4–5:30pm ET
Zoom panel discussion by CU-AAUP: LEGAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE COLUMBIA AGREEMENT
An expert panel of law professors will address questions about CU’s resolution agreement.
Open to Barnard & Columbia faculty. MUST register by 12pm, link here: us06web.zoom.us/webinar/regi...
Zoom panel discussion by CU-AAUP: LEGAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE COLUMBIA AGREEMENT
An expert panel of law professors will address questions about CU’s resolution agreement.
Open to Barnard & Columbia faculty. MUST register by 12pm, link here: us06web.zoom.us/webinar/regi...
Welcome! You are invited to join a webinar: Legal Perspectives on the Columbia Agreement. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the webinar.
Welcome! You are invited to join a webinar: Legal Perspectives on the Columbia Agreement. After registering, you will receive a confirmation email about joining the webinar.
us06web.zoom.us
August 5, 2025 at 11:41 AM
TODAY! 4–5:30pm ET
Zoom panel discussion by CU-AAUP: LEGAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE COLUMBIA AGREEMENT
An expert panel of law professors will address questions about CU’s resolution agreement.
Open to Barnard & Columbia faculty. MUST register by 12pm, link here: us06web.zoom.us/webinar/regi...
Zoom panel discussion by CU-AAUP: LEGAL PERSPECTIVES ON THE COLUMBIA AGREEMENT
An expert panel of law professors will address questions about CU’s resolution agreement.
Open to Barnard & Columbia faculty. MUST register by 12pm, link here: us06web.zoom.us/webinar/regi...
Out today in the Columbia Spectator — faculty from CUIMC Stands Up & CU Faculty Alliance reframe the narrative about antisemitism at Columbia through an analysis of the HEALS data. Read it here ⬇️
www.columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2025...
www.columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2025...
Reframing the narrative on antisemitism at Columbia: What the data says
In March, President Donald Trump’s administration abruptly terminated numerous federally funded scientific research projects at Columbia. According to personal correspondence with multiple Columbia Un...
www.columbiaspectator.com
July 26, 2025 at 11:12 PM
Out today in the Columbia Spectator — faculty from CUIMC Stands Up & CU Faculty Alliance reframe the narrative about antisemitism at Columbia through an analysis of the HEALS data. Read it here ⬇️
www.columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2025...
www.columbiaspectator.com/opinion/2025...
Thank you to Rise Up, Columbia for the astute analysis as usual and the footnote shoutout to CUIMC Stands Up!
We’re a group of medical campus faculty & staff firmly against the exchange of our values for grant funds, even as our jobs & careers are at risk.
🔗 open.substack.com/pub/riseupco...
We’re a group of medical campus faculty & staff firmly against the exchange of our values for grant funds, even as our jobs & careers are at risk.
🔗 open.substack.com/pub/riseupco...
July 24, 2025 at 7:03 PM
Thank you to Rise Up, Columbia for the astute analysis as usual and the footnote shoutout to CUIMC Stands Up!
We’re a group of medical campus faculty & staff firmly against the exchange of our values for grant funds, even as our jobs & careers are at risk.
🔗 open.substack.com/pub/riseupco...
We’re a group of medical campus faculty & staff firmly against the exchange of our values for grant funds, even as our jobs & careers are at risk.
🔗 open.substack.com/pub/riseupco...
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
Latest on Columbia with words by historian Ellen Schrecker www.vqronline.org/spring-2025/...
In the Hallowed Place Where There’s Only Darkness
For more than fifty years, I have been studying and writing about political repression and higher education, with a special emphasis on McCarthyism, long considered by historians to be the most seriou...
www.vqronline.org
July 10, 2025 at 9:56 PM
Latest on Columbia with words by historian Ellen Schrecker www.vqronline.org/spring-2025/...
At Columbia, we’re also facing challenges as layoffs continue, threatening the integrity of research + diversity driving our excellence. We need ACTION to protect academic freedom, scholars, & research.
We demand our leaders:
🧬 Protect science
🔬 Preserve innovation
👩🔬 Support education & research
We demand our leaders:
🧬 Protect science
🔬 Preserve innovation
👩🔬 Support education & research
Spread the word: when scientific training and research funding is cut, EVERYBODY loses.
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
Proposed cuts could have ‘catastrophic effect,’ 110 biomedical, health sciences industry leaders tell Congress
Proposed cuts will have “a catastrophic effect on the advancement of biomedical and biotechnology capabilities in the United States,” more than 100 leaders of biomedical/health sciences companies tell...
www.statnews.com
July 1, 2025 at 11:09 PM
At Columbia, we’re also facing challenges as layoffs continue, threatening the integrity of research + diversity driving our excellence. We need ACTION to protect academic freedom, scholars, & research.
We demand our leaders:
🧬 Protect science
🔬 Preserve innovation
👩🔬 Support education & research
We demand our leaders:
🧬 Protect science
🔬 Preserve innovation
👩🔬 Support education & research
So far ~250 Columbia affiliates have signed a petition calling to remove Shoshana Shendelman from CU Board of Trustees + boards of CUIMC & VP&S: www.bit.ly/Remove-Trustee
After an FDA warning letter ‼️ she allegedly misled investors re: company prospects
Read more: theintercept.com/2025/05/27/c...
After an FDA warning letter ‼️ she allegedly misled investors re: company prospects
Read more: theintercept.com/2025/05/27/c...
Columbia Trustee Got Sued for Securities Fraud — Then Left Her Pharma Firm Under a Cloud
Columbia trustee Shoshana Shendelman sold millions in stock as she was going back and forth with the FDA. Then the drug got rejected.
theintercept.com
July 1, 2025 at 10:46 PM
So far ~250 Columbia affiliates have signed a petition calling to remove Shoshana Shendelman from CU Board of Trustees + boards of CUIMC & VP&S: www.bit.ly/Remove-Trustee
After an FDA warning letter ‼️ she allegedly misled investors re: company prospects
Read more: theintercept.com/2025/05/27/c...
After an FDA warning letter ‼️ she allegedly misled investors re: company prospects
Read more: theintercept.com/2025/05/27/c...
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
@columbiamed.bsky.social posted this on X? CUIMC has many obesity medicine docs, dietitians, etc. who study nutrition. Trustee Shoshana Shendelman isn’t one of them She’s been sued for fraud (hiding FDA concerns). Faculty have a petition to remove her from CU leadership: bit.ly/Remove-Trustee
June 27, 2025 at 8:23 PM
@columbiamed.bsky.social posted this on X? CUIMC has many obesity medicine docs, dietitians, etc. who study nutrition. Trustee Shoshana Shendelman isn’t one of them She’s been sued for fraud (hiding FDA concerns). Faculty have a petition to remove her from CU leadership: bit.ly/Remove-Trustee
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
Still thinking about the official Columbia Medical Center @columbiamed.bsky.social X account posting about the “importance of collaboration” between pharma and Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) as if MAHA is a legit org and not a gov. committee & broader movement, both widely considered unscientific
@columbiamed.bsky.social posted this on X? CUIMC has many obesity medicine docs, dietitians, etc. who study nutrition. Trustee Shoshana Shendelman isn’t one of them She’s been sued for fraud (hiding FDA concerns). Faculty have a petition to remove her from CU leadership: bit.ly/Remove-Trustee
June 28, 2025 at 6:18 PM
Still thinking about the official Columbia Medical Center @columbiamed.bsky.social X account posting about the “importance of collaboration” between pharma and Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) as if MAHA is a legit org and not a gov. committee & broader movement, both widely considered unscientific
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
"A reduction in federal research funding on the scale currently contemplated for fiscal year 2026 will have a catastrophic effect on the advancement of biomedical & biotechnology capabilities in the United States."
This is utter madness. Massive cuts to US scientific research will harm everyone.
This is utter madness. Massive cuts to US scientific research will harm everyone.
Spread the word: when scientific training and research funding is cut, EVERYBODY loses.
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
Proposed cuts could have ‘catastrophic effect,’ 110 biomedical, health sciences industry leaders tell Congress
Proposed cuts will have “a catastrophic effect on the advancement of biomedical and biotechnology capabilities in the United States,” more than 100 leaders of biomedical/health sciences companies tell...
www.statnews.com
July 1, 2025 at 9:07 PM
"A reduction in federal research funding on the scale currently contemplated for fiscal year 2026 will have a catastrophic effect on the advancement of biomedical & biotechnology capabilities in the United States."
This is utter madness. Massive cuts to US scientific research will harm everyone.
This is utter madness. Massive cuts to US scientific research will harm everyone.
Spread the word: when scientific training and research funding is cut, EVERYBODY loses.
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
Proposed cuts could have ‘catastrophic effect,’ 110 biomedical, health sciences industry leaders tell Congress
Proposed cuts will have “a catastrophic effect on the advancement of biomedical and biotechnology capabilities in the United States,” more than 100 leaders of biomedical/health sciences companies tell...
www.statnews.com
July 1, 2025 at 8:26 PM
Spread the word: when scientific training and research funding is cut, EVERYBODY loses.
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
@statnews.com
www.statnews.com/2025/06/27/b...
Reposted by CUIMC Stands Up
June 30, 2025
Columbia University ICE Protest - NYC
Activists with the Irving Medical Center held photos of students that have been targeted for deportation due to political speech.
Instagram: @cufaculty_alliance
Instagram: @cuimstandup
Bluesky: @cuimcstandsup.bsky.social
Facebook: CUIMC Stands Up
Columbia University ICE Protest - NYC
Activists with the Irving Medical Center held photos of students that have been targeted for deportation due to political speech.
Instagram: @cufaculty_alliance
Instagram: @cuimstandup
Bluesky: @cuimcstandsup.bsky.social
Facebook: CUIMC Stands Up
June 30, 2025 at 5:30 PM
June 30, 2025
Columbia University ICE Protest - NYC
Activists with the Irving Medical Center held photos of students that have been targeted for deportation due to political speech.
Instagram: @cufaculty_alliance
Instagram: @cuimstandup
Bluesky: @cuimcstandsup.bsky.social
Facebook: CUIMC Stands Up
Columbia University ICE Protest - NYC
Activists with the Irving Medical Center held photos of students that have been targeted for deportation due to political speech.
Instagram: @cufaculty_alliance
Instagram: @cuimstandup
Bluesky: @cuimcstandsup.bsky.social
Facebook: CUIMC Stands Up
This week’s Columbia vigil will be at 116th & Broadway tomorrow (Monday) at noon. All are welcome, bring a friend or colleague!
We will again be holding photographs of ALL targeted students. They’re out of detention, but still targeted with attempted deportation for political speech
#CampusVigils
We will again be holding photographs of ALL targeted students. They’re out of detention, but still targeted with attempted deportation for political speech
#CampusVigils
June 30, 2025 at 1:16 AM
This week’s Columbia vigil will be at 116th & Broadway tomorrow (Monday) at noon. All are welcome, bring a friend or colleague!
We will again be holding photographs of ALL targeted students. They’re out of detention, but still targeted with attempted deportation for political speech
#CampusVigils
We will again be holding photographs of ALL targeted students. They’re out of detention, but still targeted with attempted deportation for political speech
#CampusVigils
Still thinking about the official Columbia Medical Center @columbiamed.bsky.social X account posting about the “importance of collaboration” between pharma and Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) as if MAHA is a legit org and not a gov. committee & broader movement, both widely considered unscientific
@columbiamed.bsky.social posted this on X? CUIMC has many obesity medicine docs, dietitians, etc. who study nutrition. Trustee Shoshana Shendelman isn’t one of them She’s been sued for fraud (hiding FDA concerns). Faculty have a petition to remove her from CU leadership: bit.ly/Remove-Trustee
June 28, 2025 at 6:18 PM
Still thinking about the official Columbia Medical Center @columbiamed.bsky.social X account posting about the “importance of collaboration” between pharma and Make America Healthy Again (MAHA) as if MAHA is a legit org and not a gov. committee & broader movement, both widely considered unscientific