"I thought I was going to dread living for the rest of my life.” | Galatea
CW: Mention of rape, rape culture, alcoholism and sobriety, religious trauma (Christianity), consent under the influence, disordered eating (bingeing), body dysmorphia, age gap relationships, domestic abuse, cycles of abuse, divorce, disability and rape, neurodivergence (autism) October 10, 2024 Q: “Very exciting, thank you for coming.” A: “Yeah, thank you for having me.” Q: “I’m so glad because we haven’t seen each other as much as I’ve wanted to. Part of that is just like life, but part of that is both of us had stuff going on in our cycles that we both just kind of closed out. There wasn’t really a point before this that we could’ve done this, but I was always hoping that you could – I do put a general call out for people that volunteer, but of people I know I like to reach out to people I feel like have unique wisdom with this subject, and I feel certainly out of my group of people that you do. I hope this will be good for you, especially given now that there are a lot of eyes on it.” A: “Yeah, you’re right. I feel like only this year I would be ready to do this thing. I think my sobriety plays a big role in that, obviously. I also think being over 25, and then I’m like, ‘Maybe it’s placebo.’ I keep saying that, something shifted. I got sober at 25, now I’m 26. It’s like I’m really an adult. I just finished my first year of my full-time job, first full-time job. I was journaling about it and it’s been 8 years since the first incident. It was 2016, which is just crazy.” Q: “Yeah, I remember it being in October.” A: “Yeah, it’s October, exactly, so this month is kind of tough.” Q: “How do you feel about that passage of time and those cycles and paths that you were on in that time?” A: “It’s sometimes hard to believe that was me, but at the same time I can see myself in her. I feel like I’m finally in a place where I’m safe and stable enough to reflect on the years – not that I wasn’t reflecting or doing the work the past eight years. I think that’s why I’m here now, is because I was doing the work, but I think I just was in survival mode. And I know we see that a lot, I feel like I’m going to use a bunch of buzzwords, but I think you don’t realize you were in survival mode until you come out of it. I think drinking and disassociation, which I was always hesitant to use or identify with, but it wasn’t until I came back into my body and had the thought, ‘Where was I the past almost decade?’ that it sunk in. But I’m also really proud of myself for making it here.” Q: “You should be.” A: “Yeah. I feel like the weight of everything is really – I have worked really, really hard, and it’s cool to be in a place where I do love myself and I’m not actively depressed. I thought I was going to dread living for the rest of my life. *crying softly* I thought I was going to have to wake up every day – I was so confused, I didn’t understand how anyone did it, how anyone in my family, just anybody kept going. And I think I attribute a lot of that to my sobriety, not drinking. I think that’s when my ideation was the worst. So, not wanting to die is pretty cool and genuinely actually feeling good about being here is really cool. And I think you get used to it too. It just becomes your reality. It just kind of lingers, but I feel the most me I’ve ever been. And a lot of that is also related to my unmasking and discovering my neurodivergence. I think survivors already have a hard time not blaming themselves, so on top of that, not realizing that I wasn’t seeing things the way everyone else was and knowing that autistic women are at a much higher risk for all kinds of abuse, made me feel really seen. I read this research paper and suddenly it was like, ‘Wait, yeah, I genuinely didn’t know people could have bad intentions.’ I genuinely didn’t understand how my people-pleasing would come off. I think growing up thinking you have to cater to everyone and that that's normal, how you’re supposed to exist, didn’t help. I think we need to be intentional with young people about how to say no, practicing it. I think when you have no practice because you’ve been raised compliant, I think that’s really important. When I see younger kids on TikTok having those boundaries with adults and seeing parents raise their kids that way, it does give me hope that future kids aren’t going to grow up thinking that you exist to please people.” Q: “Mmmmmm, yikes!” A: “Yeah, yikes! Literally.” Q: “Is there anything you want people to know about what you went through? Like I was saying to you earlier, I think all of the things that you experienced around and before that time sort of made this experience what it was.” A: “Yeah, I think that I attribute a lot of my people-pleasing and not knowing how to say no to growing up in the church. I was taught the acronym ‘JOY,’ which is ‘Jesus, Others, Yourself.’ That really stuck with me, whether I realized it or not, but being taught that your needs are last, I didn’t even know I had needs. I think it’s subtle, depending on the church you’re in, what denomination.” Q: “There’s a lot of self-sacrifice.” A: “Yeah, thank you, and like that that’s honorable. And I think it can be, but I’m pretty sure in the Bible that it talks about, ‘You need to take care of yourself in order to take care of others and love others.’ We love to cherry-pick, but somehow we forget that one? It’s like, wait a second.” Q: “You can’t pour from an empty glass, and that exceptionalism – I mean, if we are to treat Jesus as an exceptional person and a standard to which we will never be able to measure up, then why does everyone have to live like a martyr?” A: “Yeah. Isn’t that the point, that Jesus was a martyr so we don’t have to be? Maybe?” Q: “Yeah, forreal.” A: “And I think that’s maybe part of my patterns of behavior and choices I made leaving high school going into college, a lot of that was a kind of rebellion against my upbringing. I remember even in high school joking about having a double life like I was Hannah Montana, and in college I think I really wanted to mesh the two. I wanted one life and unfortunately I think escaping through alcohol was an easy path from that. I didn’t discover my neurodivergence until after college. Drinking made me feel normal. I could be in those loud crowded spaces and not get overstimulated as easily. I think it gave me the kind of freedom I was looking for. I mean, I was desperate to drink in high school. I was allowed to sip on things growing up, it wasn’t like I was not exposed, but I was desperate for that relief before I even knew what it felt like. So, I think all of those things combined is a bad recipe. I think there’s a way to love God and to love yourself, and I think that’s actually the way to do it. It’s unfortunate, thinking that spirituality is all about rules, things you can’t do rather than the beauty that’s in it. That’s something I’m happy to be exploring again, my spirituality, after growing up a preacher’s kid and then going the complete opposite way. Now it’s like, okay, it can be a little bit of both.” Q: “It can be for you now instead of for them.” A: “Yes, exactly.” Q: “What was the process of exploring your needs and actually figuring them out for the first time like?” A: “Yeah, how did I, what was that like? I mean, I think after the choir incident – I guess we’ll call it that – I knew that that was wrong. I knew that that wasn’t right, so I did call Pitt’s counseling center the next day or that weekend, so I think getting into therapy was huge for me. I think hearing from my therapist that I’m doing work that people who are 40, 50 are only just starting. I remember her asking, ‘What does your ideal life look like?’ and I said, ‘I just want to be content, peaceful. I want a house,’ which is kind of sad looking back now. *begins to cry* I just wanted to feel safe and loved. But I think that that was really important for me to discover as an 18, 19-year-old, and that I deserved that, that there was a way to get there. I think that was probably the first time I realized that it wasn’t my fault, that I didn’t deserve it.” Q: “So, that experience was foundational clearly, particularly for your mental health and self conception. I guess a follow-up I would have to that is that sometimes we can have a pivotal moment of changing course, but healing isn’t linear, so I guess my question is from what I know of you and this journey is, what was the process of healing your relationship with your body and your sexuality like after that experience and everything else that happened after that?” A: “I mean, before the choir incident or Halloween incident, I think I’ve told you that I realized that wasn’t even the first time I was raped. I guess this is kind of where things line up for me. Growing up in the church but also not dating in middle school or high school and with the media we grew up with, you grow up and there’s this idea that you’re missing out. I felt like I was behind and needed to be doing these things with boys and men. I was really desperate for that validation. I grew up in the 2010s era of Tumblr where choice feminism was big, ‘Sleep around, do whatever you want!’ and obviously I think that’s a fine concept, but it wasn’t followed with, ‘But you don’t have to do that to be doing feminism right.’ I think rape culture has changed with MeToo and everything, but I thought it was empowering and wanted that validation. I was kind of hypersexual, which is a common response to rape, and I learned that it’s your brain’s way of trying to change the outcome, so you put yourself in the same situation in hopes that this time it’ll be different. I thought that that’s what everyone else was doing, that it was normal to have all these one-night stands. It’s like I knew it wasn’t, but I thought I was cool. I wanted to be this cool pretty party girl.” Q: “And I’m sure that people affirmed that for you as well because I know that others had that perception of you, especially the normies.” A: “Mhmmmm, that I was this pretty party slut? Yeah, which is funny I guess because I used to pray to God every night, ‘Please make me pretty. Please make me skinny.’ It’s devastating. I didn’t know my worth, I didn’t know what I looked like – body dysmorphia, insecurities. So, I think it was the first time I was getting the validation that I was desirable. I played into that and liked to drink, so it worked out, but sophomore year is when I met my best friend. I think that changed everything for me with my sexuality. They were my gay awakening, so that was really beautiful. We are still best friends, we were friends first before we dated for a period of time, but spending time with them was the first time I saw my worth outside of the male gaze. I stopped wearing makeup, I stopped wearing a bra – you know, free the nipple, whatever. But that was so liberating for me that they thought I was beautiful without makeup and didn’t need that. It’s still taken me time to accept this, but I don’t exist to be pretty to other people. Like, I’m allowed to be ugly in public. I think still to this day plenty of people aren’t comfortable being out in public without a full face, their rituals. It’s tricky, but that’s a very real thing. So, that was huge for my self worth and confidence. That was the first time I experienced healthy safe physical touch. My sister growing up would joke that I was a terrible hugger, that I didn’t know how to hug, I guess with the autism? We weren’t super huggy. I think some families are more comfortable with that, I don’t know.” Q: “I guess? That’s so strange to me because I’ve always experienced you to be a touchy person, and I know I am, but I guess it’s a specific way that only some autists are. I don’t know, dude!” A: “Yeah, I guess now it feels safe for touch, but I just remember the moment. I don’t know what I was upset about, but they just gave me the biggest bear hug and I just remember sobbing. That was the first time I felt fully safe while being embraced.” Q: “Wow. Do they know that?” A: “I think so. I should remind them. That really changed everything, discovering my queerness. I think it’s tricky with trauma and sexuality, especially when you’re attracted to multiple genders and you have trauma with one of them. It could be easy to say, ‘You only like girls because of your trauma with men.’ I think that’s always kind of an interesting element, but I didn’t know that I could be gay growing up. I didn’t know it was an option.” Q: “We didn’t really have any examples of a spectrum of queer people in our generation – I say our generation, but technically college-age students now are in our generation, which is weird, but still.” A: “Yeah, I mean, the fact that everyone is coming out now. I could name the out gay people in high school, you know? It was maybe 10 max. Now it’s assumed that everyone is bi, and that’s incredible, but it’s a different world. But yeah, I think decentering men, understanding the male gaze, really shifted how I see myself. We dated for a time, then we stopped dating. I studied abroad and I thought I was over my old ways. I thought I wasn’t going to be this party girl slut, but I kinda did the same exact thing, if not worse. I really relied on alcohol as a social crutch. Being in a foreign country a 16-hour plane ride away from home, I was just trying to cope. That was confusing for me because I knew that I wasn’t getting anything out of these hookups, but yet I was still doing it and craving it, especially when I drank. So, I was happy to come home and be out of that. Even though I had a new perception of myself, there was still pressure to be straight, compulsory heterosexuality, comphet.” Q: “I think especially in Pittsburgh, too. And there can be a cliquey-ness in queer circles here because it’s a small city. Queer relationships are already difficult in that like, ‘I’m besties with my ex,’ that’s the norm anyways, but in a very small city sometimes that can get messy. And also, it’s that whole thing of if you don’t see people around who you vibe with, it can be kind of isolating. So, it’s like, damned if you do, damned if you don’t.” A: “Right, yeah, and I think I still feel this to this day, I crave a good man. I crave a healthy, safe– I mean, that’s why I think I wanted to make it work with my first and only boyfriend, I feel.” Q: “One and done, baby.” A: “One and done, haha. Like, seriously dated, a long term thing.” Q: “That was a long time. Was that your longest relationship?” A: “Yeah. I did try to leave after one year, and it kind of just continued on. Even as I’ve casually dated other men, there’s this feeling that this is the last one, or feeling like I need it to work because I’m not going to do this again. Maybe I’m just gay, but there still is that desire of wanting them to change or, I don’t know. It probably comes from wanting to be good enough and wanting to be wanted. It’s like I’m desperate for them to see my value outside of my sex value, objectifying me. And maybe that’s a trauma response.” Q: “Probably. I think from what I know of that, not just personally, but I’ve heard it said that that impulse very frequently, the ‘I can change him,’ is because of the original wound, ‘trying to make the bad Daddy good,’ is what they say. There is a very good reason that the Daddy issues trope plays out so frequently in real life is that regardless of your specific father, the patriarchy and what we expect and allow from father figures period – I mean, that could be a mentor, doesn’t have to be your actual dad – definitely enables this environment where men are changeable and—” A: “And it’s women’s job to teach them. I was ranting about this at work today. I saw a comedian make a joke today about how she wants a divorced dad. It sent me into rage, the fact that we have normalized teaching men how to be nice, training them. Like, they’re not dogs. They are full grown adults. It just made me sick to my stomach that that’s funny and that people – I don’t even have words. Straight culture is just so bad, so toxic.” Q: “It perpetuates an unhealthy standard for everybody, on all sides, regardless of your gender. I mean, to be treated like you’re helpless all the time must really suck. And, ‘you’re just born to be bad.’” A: “‘Boys will be boys.’” Q: “That sounds actually terrible. It would be like if people told me, ‘Oh, don’t worry, you’re just a stupid little woman, that’s just what you do,’ and that’s terrible.” A: “But at the same time, you can’t cry.” Q: “Just gotta sit on it, hold it inside until you die.” A: “It is wild. Toxic masculinity is bad for everybody. But yeah, I’m really sick of this. It goes back to the idea that women are here to serve men and that’s our job, that’s what they’re owed. I do feel like it’s this kind of learned helplessness and they often admit it. Like, they admit that they’re being trained by their previous girl, and soon they’ll be good enough for–” Q: “Literally, when simply in the internet era, they could fucking Google it. Do you need a girlfriend or do you need Google?” A: “Yeah, and if you grew up with a dynamic that you felt like you had to earn your love and approval – I was very service-oriented. I still think I struggle with this, feeling needed. I feel like I have to offer them something so that they need me.” Q: “So that they want you. Like, if I don’t have something tangible to offer on the table, if I’m not physically giving them something or asking them for what they want, maybe not even with reciprocity, then what am I good for?” A: “Oh yeah, exactly. I think finally I’m in a spot where I know I have worth just by existing. Capitalism, let’s throw it in there, deconstructing your worth under capitalism. You’re not worthy just when you’re productive. Your worth is not defined by how much you can produce.” Q: “I mean, even under that model, the thing about it that is so flawed is that significant rest realistically, especially in an environment with this many catastrophes, is necessary to produce anything. So, realistically, it’s beneficial even from that standpoint.” A: “Oh yeah, I hate hustle culture. I think that was a big part of my healing journey. Like, it’s okay to slow down. It’s a big thing you learn when you go to college or when you graduate. Everyone your age was doing the same thing and now we’re all doing different things. People are reaching different milestones at different times.” Q: “It’s also just kind of a game of luck, at the end of the day, and that’s not really something that even in really great universities that have fostered environments where there’s nuance around these kinds of things, there’s an inherent flaw in the model that makes people feel like there’s a rush.” A: “Yeah, the scarcity mindset, fear-mongering, the milestones.” Q: “Back to that sort of thing, just sort of about your journey with discovering your needs–” A: “Right, I guess I think food is a big part of this, eating. I’ve struggled with that since puberty, you know, becoming self-aware. And that’s something I still struggle with today. Every day we have to feed ourselves.” Q: “The burden of consciousness.” A: “Literally. I guess I’m thinking, I couldn’t leave my dorm room. I was so anxious. I didn’t have any friends to go to the dining hall with, so I would eat the unhealthy things from the quick stop places. And then that played a role in my drinking too. It was interesting, when I stopped drinking I realized that having an empty stomach was a trigger for me because I knew I would get drunker faster. It was like, ‘I need to hurry and put something in my belly, otherwise I’m going to have these thoughts.’ I think my relationship with food changed a lot when I wasn’t relying on alcohol. Food plays a huge role, we have to have it, so–” Q: “Binge and cleanse, binge and cleanse.” A: “Exactly, lots of binging. Along with that too, the purging with the drinking, that was very normal for me. There was a moment in time where that kind of went over even when I wasn’t drinking. I luckily quickly cut that out, but seeing food as fuel and nutrition again. My mom raised me well in that sense. We always had fruits and vegetables. I guess as I realized I was poisoning myself with the alcohol, I became more aware of the food I was eating. But I also went through a phase where I was eating fast food every day, and that was important for me to destigmatize that in my brain. I was proud of myself because I realized it’s better to eat something than to not eat anything. Whether that meant I was eating Wendy’s every other day, it got me through a time. So, I guess, realizing I have needs but it’s not going to be perfect and realizing sometimes you have to focus on different needs at different times. Sleep – I used to have tons of nightmares. I procrastinate going to bed, I like to stay up late. It’s interesting, with trauma and sleep, because it can be a great escape but it can also be retriggering, a time of actual panic and discomfort. There’s nothing worse than waking up panicked, you know? Rest is productive and letting yourself rest. If you’re hating on yourself for resting while doing it then you’re not actually resting. I think giving yourself permission – that’s a huge thing for me and my needs. It sounds crazy now, that I had to learn to prioritize myself, to put myself first.” Q: “It’s unfortunately not that crazy.” A: “I know!” Q: “That’s the terrible thing. You have no idea how many times I’ve heard that.” A: “It’s so unfortunate. And I don’t think most men feel that way, many don’t feel guilty in the same ways that we often do. Women will move out of the way even if they’re not in the way, but men stand still. It happens at work all the time. It’s like, are they unaware of their surroundings or they are and don’t think?” Q: “I think it can be both. I think there’s such a vast array of experience because some people have really subtle patriarchal urges, and some people have it very overtly, like the ‘Women should stay in the kitchen’ people. But then there’s people who don’t hold the door for anybody, which could be considered part of patriarchy, not being a part of the community.” A: “Yeah, like, when it’s more subtle, that’s almost harder to undo.” Q: “Of course, when people don’t see themselves as part of the problem. It’s the same thing with racism and–” A: “I was literally about to say that. Like, we’re inherently part of the problem. With my sobriety, it’s the first time I felt in control of my body and my peace. Decentering men and understanding the male gaze in college was kind of pivotal for me and empowering. And now I feel like my sobriety is just another thing that – like no one can take that away from me except for me, it’s all mine. I’ve had to say - I’ve learned over the years how to say no. I wish I had that sooner, you know? I wish it had been instilled in me as a kid, really. I’m very grateful to be where I’m at now and have my strong sense of self, feeling empowered, but it shouldn’t have taken this long or it didn’t need to be this way.” Q: “Well, so, speaking of that and a few things you’ve said that I’ve picked up on, I was wondering if you wanted to talk a little bit about your support system, like your mom, and your journey with having that kinship in your life.” A: “I wanted to make my mom happy as a kid, and she was overprotective and worried a lot. But, I’m gonna cry, she’s always seen me for me and she’s always known what I love, what I’m passionate about, so she’s grounding for me. I know you know when you tell people your story and get different reactions and there’s lots of victim-blaming, even though we may not have gone into detail, my mom and I, I didn’t have to. She just embraced me and was happy I was here, you know? A trigger for me is feeling misunderstood or feeling like I have to explain myself, defend myself, and I’ve experienced that with other family members, so to have my mom just believe me and be there for me – same with my grandparents, my mom’s parents. I’m so lucky, I have the best family, just truly loving people who allow me to be me in all my mess. I’d go over for dinner and would be crying, depressed, or the world sucked, just having these young 20 year old experiences, and they didn’t make me feel stupid or silly. They just let me express myself, so I guess to be on the other side of that now and to be able to share that with my mom and grandparents, now we can laugh about it. That’s really beautiful, that they’re still here and can see that. They’ve seen my growth. I just know that I’m so, so lucky to have their support. Like, I know so many people don’t have that. I have always been loved unconditionally by them and I think that plays a huge role in my resilience because you have to be resilient to make it out. I’m also lucky that that side of the family doesn’t drink, that it wasn’t a big part of our culture. That was an easy shift, knowing I could be honest with them about that and have their support, that they’re proud of me and my many milestones. I had my one year celebration at their house in their backyard. I chose that intentionally because they’re older and not as mobile, and of course they have the perfect spot for it, but I really wanted them to be there because they’re so instrumental in me being here. To have them there at that celebration was really special. But it is also interesting, with watching family dynamics as a kid, I saw my parents’ relationship in my previous toxic relationship. I think it was helpful to see, I watched my mom keep trying and trying, seeing that in me, that I just kept trying and trying. I’m so glad I got to the point where I was like, ‘Actually, it’s not honorable anymore. I’m disrespecting myself. I’m abandoning myself by continuing to try to make something work for the sake of doing the “right” thing.’ I probably still do have a fear of being bad. Like, I want to be good, which is probably the OCD. Even though having divorced parents sucks, I’m so proud of my mom for putting herself first and putting her kids first. It wasn’t just about her, she’s always put us first. But yeah, having that clarity, hearing the things my dad would say, like, ‘Oh yeah, I am my mom now. That is me.’ My aunt is a badass woman, unmarried, child-free, and to me she’s thriving, but to see my mom and my aunt as powerful independent women who know enough of their worth to have done what they’ve done – seeing that it’s okay to make those hard decisions. You’re going to hurt other people. That was huge for me, accepting that I was going to be the bad guy in someone’s story. Now I’m like, ‘Okay, so be it.’ But that took a lot to get there. But yeah, I don’t think that my mom is the bad guy, so, I’m not the bad guy either, even though we’re made to feel like we are when we put our foot down.” Q: “Which is such a silly concept anyways because I think that there can be victim and aggressor in situations, but in terms of putting your foot down or asserting a boundary, it’s significantly less black and white than that. Like, bad guy, good guy, you know? It’s kind of a neutral thing to have a boundary. It doesn’t make the world instantly better, but it also isn’t an act of harm. And even harm, that’s a whole other thing of like cycles of abuse, levels of harm.” A: “Feeling responsible. I felt so responsible for other people’s emotions and their reality.” Q: “There will always be harm, it’s about what you do with it. In some ways, it can be more harmful to perpetuate a toxic situationship. Even if that person is abusive to you, in some ways – I believe this, I don’t know that everyone does, but it hurts people’s souls to be enabled or allowed to be abusive or to do harmful things. I mean, that’s one of the good things about putting up a boundary with someone who’s been toxic or a toxic dynamic, is you saving them from causing hurt. Causing hurt hurts.” A: “Yeah, that’s really interesting. I’ve thought about that. I’ve felt guilty that I could’ve trusted my gut sooner. I think a large part of that is that I didn’t want to teach him to be better. I was tired, but I think you’re right. Now that I’ve learned about the dynamics and cycles – I mean, and he would say that too, that he wanted a girl to be mean. And that was really weird for me to hear because I’ve always been the nice girl. I should’ve realized then that he didn’t like me. That was so strange to me. I also think it was like, ‘What?’ I was trained to be the nice girl, to give, give, give, and then discovering that this thing I’ve tried to maintain and put my own needs aside isn’t actually what they want from me.” Q: “Dude, you are kinder than me, I would’ve lost it.” A: “It’s so funny, looking back, like, where was I? I was not there.” Q: “Well, I think also with those situations of continued abuse, like this case of a pretty abusive relationship, there’s a point at which you hit a wall. You hit it when you hit it, and you’re only recently learning about these dynamics. Like, you don’t know what you don’t know until you know it. It’s just like, what are you gonna do? All of these conversations weren’t being had. Like, MeToo didn’t happen until you were, what, a sophomore or junior in college? And the way it was being talked about was so un-nuanced. Most of the people saying MeToo were either things like a man touched me on the bus one time or someone violently raped me. The inbetween are what most people’s experiences are. There’a a lot of gray area, especially with coercion and abusive relationships, even just subtle things.” A: “I remember being annoyed with MeToo because I felt like we shouldn’t have to come forward and share our traumatic stories in detail like that for you to believe us or even know it’s happening? That’s not to say the movement wasn’t good.” Q: “I get you, like, really, you didn’t know? This is what it took?” A: “And I think because it was so soon after my traumatic experiences that it was a little triggering.” Q: “I think I remember you writing that” A: “But yeah, it was frustrating as a survivor. That was my first serious relationship with a man, and only my second real relationship, so I was still pretty inexperienced in terms of those emotional dynamics.” Q: “Well, and he was also significantly older and emotionally immature person who was expecting you to do a lot of emotional caretaking in a situation where it’s kind of unequal power for multiple reasons. This was a person I knew as an adult when I was still a child. Like, I recognized him when I found out you were dating him.” A: “Yeah, and I’m thinking about how setting boundaries is helpful for them. He was so sick of himself by the end. It was devastating, all of it. I guess I’m thinking, when they learn, ‘Oh, well, she lets me do this, then I can get away with–’ I didn’t put up a fight for anything really, so I think by the end–” Q: “He just kept pushing the boundary further.” A: “Yeah and I think he was even sick of himself. And then I’m like, okay, pause, because I tried.” Q: “No, literally. There’s only so much you can do in those situations. Also, with the timing of this, most of your relationship was in the core pandemic years, so I think there’s a sense of wanting stability, reliability, domesticity wrapped up in there. And it makes sense, but it makes sense that you went for a man in unprecedented times, holding down the home front in the plague. I certainly felt a longing or a jealousy for that kind of thing in that time that everyone around me was having.” A: “I’ve been feeling that a lot recently.” Q: “I get you, I’m a problem.” A: “Yeah, and I guess with sexuality, often in times in abusive relationships sex can play a large role in the dynamics. That being one of the few times I felt connected to him, I think it still has messed with my confidence.” Q: “Confidence in general or confidence with sexuality?” A: “Well, it’s funny because for so long I wanted to be seen as attractive. I wanted to be valued in that way, but now I worry I’m not going to – I feel like the stars would have to align for me to be attracted to someone who’s also attracted to me, and they’re attracted to me physically and emotionally and me with them as well. That’s what a healthy relationship is supposed to be, but in my head that feels so unattainable. I worry I’m too nice, like, why does everyone want mean girls? And then I’m like, ew, I feel like I sound like, ‘Oooo, I’m a nice girl.’ It’s more just like…” Q: “Not wanting to play into a toxic dynamic, not wanting to play a subscribed role, ‘Oh, I’m the old ball and chain, you have to hate your wife.’ It’s fucked up. And then not subscribing to that and feeling pressure to play that role as a form of caretaking when really that’s not a kink or fetish. BDSM has its own place, but that’s not kink, that’s someone not accepting you for who you are and trying to make you be someone else for their own desire.” A: “Yeah like, you don’t want to do the work so you want me to bully you into it?” Q: “I think the fuck not.” A: “And I think too, any gender can be a bad person, but with men I am often doubtful that I could sustain a long-term relationship with a man. Or maybe I have more hope in queer relationships, that I’d be seen by another queer person.” Q: “I’m sure some of that also has to do with how oppressed people have an issue of feeling not being seen in the first place, not being perceived in their wholeness, and those are generally the groups of people that experience higher levels of sexual and domestic violence. Like, it makes sense, being skeptical that people would see your wholeness that would let you have a mutual interaction, any kind of mutuality instead of an unequal dynamic. I think that’s another thing that I’m glad that you raised with autism, there can be this skepticism because for a lot of autistic people there’s a trigger about feeling like people willfully misunderstand or misinterpret you. So, the idea of being skeptical that anyone would understand you, not only because you have been misunderstood but because that’s just what happens with autism.” A: “Yeah, and I mean, people to this day still don’t, because of the way I look, people say, ‘You can’t be autistic.’ So, sometimes I just feel like I can’t win.” Q: “Yeah, and then you have people talking about it like, ‘Oh it’s your superpower,’ or conversely, ‘Sorry you have this disorder.’ It’s really just a neutral thing about us.” A: “Yeah, right, with language and identity first-language, like disabled person versus a person with a disability. People have different opinions on that, but it’s just part of us and how we see the world. I wish I knew sooner. Going back to the wholeness thing, now I know if I’m sensing something’s off or they’re misunderstanding me, then that’s a sign that these people aren’t meant for me. I’ve gotten to the point where I feel like that’s fine, that I don’t want to be doing that, and I’m pleased with that. You don’t need to force things with the right people, and I think having solid friendships like ours and having people around that you can click with immediately helps.” Q: “And you don’t need to do anything. Like, our friendship doesn’t hinge on being in a certain venue or spending money. Yeah, we could go out but we could also just cancel and girl-rot playing on our phones.” A: “Literally, parallel-play.” Q: “Yeah, but we usually have these talks. We normally end up talking about everything in the universe because that’s just who we are. But when you have that and you realize the consistency and the safety of that, I feel like that’s a good thing to compare. And the fact that you have your family in that kind of role is probably really stabilizing for that sense of mutuality.” A: “Yeah, for sure, definitely. I guess as single people, friendship is everything, friendship and family. And maybe being queer as well, we’ve just gotta stick together. I do, I come back to that a lot. I don’t need to settle for something that’s not serving me when I have really great friends and family. So, that does give me hope or keeps me optimistic.” Q: “I mean, if these friends exist and many of your close friends are people you met in your hometown, like, there’s a whole world. Maybe there’ll be a hottie thembo who lives in Canada, who knows? I don’t know.” A: “The world is my oyster.” Q: “That’s what I’m saying. I know there was one thing I wanted to ask you about because we talked about this a little. Everything that you’ve said is so wise and people can learn from it, but I think that we talked about that not only is it something I’ve really wanted to be a part of this project I think also because of the way that you’ve talked about it. Especially in terms of sobriety and the role that substances and a culture of substance abuse culture plays in sexual and domestic violence as enablers of those situations, casual alcoholism and party culture, not having a culture of care and community, I was thinking about cycles of abuse and how when you’re normalized to have a lot of not-sober interactions with people, if you’re constantly in states of not being in your body, what kinds of things can happen and how that can change your behavior, self-perception, and self-awareness.” A: “Totally. Yes, I think substances play a huge role when you’ve only had drunk sex, drunk hookups, then that becomes normal. I had no practice or experience with consensual or sober sex. I became very pushy for that attention and validation. My night out didn’t feel complete if I didn’t have a hookup or get that attention. It was like, ‘Why did I go out? That was stupid’ I can’t believe that was me. But I think that lead to some complicated situations. I have moments of blacking in where I don’t have memory of how I got there, but I was on top of someone, these moments where it’s like, ‘Wait a second, how did I get here?’ or not respecting people’s boundaries. And that had been told to me. It had gotten back to me that this guy felt I was really pushy, that he didn’t want to do that. It was really hard to hear at first because I felt like I was a victim, in denial about my alcohol use or how it affected my decision making. I think they’re often not mutually exclusive. You can be a victim and a perpetrator, and I do think it’s part of these cycles, and the idea that somehow women can’t assault men. I think I maybe had that idea. And this sounds dumb but maybe that humanized men a bit more to me, that they’re not just these predators that want me for my body. But maybe when you’ve been objectified that way, that’s how you think.” Q: “That that’s all that they see and experience.” A: “Yeah, when it’s like, that’s actually not the case. When I went to AA meetings in the beginning, that was helpful for accountability and sense of community. I didn’t go through the traditional steps. One of the first ones is making amends, but I already made some amends on my own. Maybe they weren’t extensive conversations, but just reaching out to people where I had felt a ton of guilt or that what I did wasn’t right. With a certain person, it took a couple tries for me to really take full responsibility. I think I still blamed it on the alcohol. And maybe the older you get the more you understand power dynamics. Just because I felt there wasn’t a power dynamic doesn’t mean there wasn’t one, you know? Being older than someone is an inherent power dynamic. So, that was really big for me, feeling that there’s nothing else to blame it on. There’s always other factors, but, yeah. I think that’s helpful for not falling into a victim complex or mindset. It’s tricky because with victim-blaming, it’s tricky to find where to take accountability.” Q: “What’s the line?” A: “Yeah, and I think having compassion or grace for myself that with these intoxication hookups, no consent could be provided at all.” Q: “Yeah, there’s levels of harm. It’s neither, ‘I was intoxicated and therefore I should feel no guilt or responsibility’ nor is it ‘I am a terrible person who is inherently unforgivable.’ And it can’t be either for us to actually change anything because if there’s literally no incentive for people to change their behavior or be called into a conversation, then what are you gonna do? And this is the conversation that I’ve had with a lot of people that not everyone agrees with depending on where they’re at with their journey. I feel like the difference between someone who is a rapist and someone who is not, which is a quality or behavior or habit, is between someone who can admit it and someone who can’t, not necessarily what you did.” A: “Yeah, and that’s what I think people are so afraid to do. When you really get down to it, I think people do realize that they may have done that because there’s so many layers and levels of severity. And that’s what keeps people out of the conversation. It’s like, yeah, there needs to be room for nuance. And yes, while we need space for angry vocal ‘fuck these guys,’ we’re not gonna fix toxic masculinity or rape culture by excluding them. It’s this thing about shame. We don’t want to be shamed as victims or survivors. Maybe we should be extending understanding of what shame does to people. You can’t hate yourself into being better.” Q: “There needs to be a horizon.” A: “Yeah, and when you mentioned the prisoners left behind in the hurricanes earlier, I’m devastated that these incarcerated individuals aren’t being given that chance. I think that’s hard because we have such an extremist culture. It’s either like you’re an enabler and supporting an abuser if you don’t come for them or they deserve the death penalty. Those can’t be the only options.” Q: “I think part of the problem is that the options we have for reparations are not sufficient. I think community service is a great idea, but they should expand that definition into things that are not prison labor, also that keep the wishes of the affected people in mind. For the example of Marcellus who was executed recently, who was innocent, even the family didn’t want him to die. That’s the point at which it’s all useless, like, no one is asking for that kind of retribution.” A: “Yeah, like this is causing more harm than good.” Q: “A lot of survivors – and many don’t, and I’m not blaming or shaming them – but some people want their abusers to die, but there are many who just want admittance and apology. And that could’ve been enough, doing something good with that. The fact that there isn’t room for that or ways of holding people accountable to that, like, counseling instead of jail forever, then they’re just going to do it again when they get out and are jaded that they wasted their lives in jail.” A: “It is really interesting, being radical or an abolitionist but also being a survivor. People often use that as an example, ‘What about the rapists?’ And I’m like, ‘Ok, yeah, I was, and I still don’t think that’s the best use of resources.’ We don’t listen to what survivors want and the only options are either to stay silent or go to court where you humiliate yourself and it goes nowhere. I think with social media, I’ve seen people post flyers and warnings, and like those Facebook groups ‘Are we dating the same guy?’ People have come together and used the internet to hold people accountable. It’s such a tricky balance. Healing is going to look different for everyone, and while for some people talking with their abuser could be extremely healing, it may not be for others. But I don’t feel like we have space for anything.” Q: “We don’t have space for either. We don’t have space for people who truly want no contact and we also don’t have space for people who just want an apology. There’s no winning in any direction and it’s stupid because all of it is possible.” A: “Yeah, like, you can take accountability and still keep your job. It sucks that that's what it takes for some people to change, when it’s their reputation on the line. It is kind of funny, I’m thinking about how people say that false accusations ruin men’s lives, and I’m like, ‘Do they?’” Q: “How many people have lost their life to rape? False accusations of rape in cases of weaponization of race or disability? Absolutely. Like, when you add another element, plenty of people have been lynched for that, but really was at play there was not rape. It was just a hate-crime. But for actual rape, show me.” A: “It’s often the victim killing themselves because they can’t live with the trauma. It’s funny, that’s one of the critiques I see of AA, that it’s kind of like the church, that you can be absolved if you just admit it.” Q: “I think there’s more to it than that. There are shitty people that are self-centered enough that they’re always going to find any excuse to absolve themselves. I don’t think there is a world in which they don’t exist, but it’s about whether we enable spaces and a culture of that kind of behavior. Some will still do it even if it’s not socially acceptable, but if normalize those things being unacceptable and being dialogue and conversation, of course it would happen less. Is there anything else that you want people to know?” A: “Yeah, that’s a good question. We can’t make assumptions. How could all of this be avoided? Communicating. It’s better to be overly cautious than not. We don’t want to instill fear in teens and kids, but we can’t assume that they know how to stand up for themselves. Maybe that’s shifting with this new generation. I feel like such an old person saying that.” Q: “Me too.” A: “Everything’s connected. These aren’t just isolated events, it’s all connected. It’s worth it to have these kinds of discussions.”
